Tempban people who have open permban requests

Vouch, they got nothing to lose, so they can grief all they want

Switching to neutral because of reasons stated below

~~Vouch Was going to suggest this myself but opted not to.

Every indef ban request is usually approved, and they all come with overwhelming amounts of evidence in favour of the ban. They're just a formality but with Steven being busy it gives players 1-2 days to return and cause damage, or return and freely play on the server they have no right to be on.~~

Neutral.

Vouch
edit: perfect example onnikisu, just got banned for attempting to crash chunk Lyicx with heads. These players that are about to get indefed dont care enough to try and make a good example for themselves, and the ones who do are far and few in between. Now this was quickly handled but staff aren't always online.

Objection

In the case this is accepted, let me open a PBR for the following: Lyicx, AshazTGA, UnderTails, Wild1145. They're now all unable to join indefinitely.

Oh, I should add I have no proof and I'll be making the requests based on spite. Yeah it'll be denied but until then all of the above will be banned.

There's no way we can really make a provision for requests that 'don't make sense' unless we leave it entirely up to Steven to decide. Even then, his idea of 'nonsensical' may differ from the requesting admin's.

@Luke#18220 i was gonna say. this reason makes me quite neutral on this matter

yeah on one hand we get randos that should be indef'd come on and cause shit even during the request period and that is quite shitty but the other hand im concerned how this could be abused or deter players if we tempban people who probably weren't even deserving of one. we SHOULD be able to trust staff to make requests when appropriate but given the shit i hear about the history of the server this is a reasonable concern

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@lyicx#18221 yeah on one hand we get randos that should be indef'd come on and cause shit even during the request period and that is quite shitty

If only we had people who were here to enforce the rules and ban people that did this... wait...

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@lyicx#18221 we SHOULD be able to trust staff to make requests when appropriate but given the shit i hear about the history of the server this is a reasonable concern

Want an example of when shit went badly? https://forum.totalfreedom.me/d/613-indefinite-ban-request-ashaz. This is regarded by Ryan (I assume) as non-sensical and was denied 2 days following it's creation. In this case, Ashaz (a user who since became admin) would've been banned for nothing.

Vouch

Vouch.

If admins are having a laugh by deliberately making ridiculous indefinite ban requests, I suggest that that is, at the very least, under "Minor cases of malicious power abuse" (temporary suspension).

In the past this was the case (if a person wiped the ban list by mistake they were told to reban all who have an open request against them). It doesn't make sense that a person should be allowed to return and continually cause trouble while the ban request process runs.

I think we have to have a degree of trust in admins that they are not going to be silly, and do something about it if they are.

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@UnderTails#18223 only admins can make permban requests

my apologies that was the former admin in me but it has no bearing on what I'm saying

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@UnderTails#18223 and if you didn’t have evidence or anything they wouldn’t be banned, you need evidence for a permban request

In the linked thread there was evidence... it just wasn't seen as actual evidence... evidence that justifies a ban to me could be different to what justifies it for you..

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@UnderTails#18223 this doesn’t need to be completely hard locked and 0 exceptions, but if a player is causing so much chaos they get a permban request from an admin, they shouldn’t be able to come on the server while awaiting a verdict, it’s just logical.

So who decides who should be banned during the waiting period? Is it done case by case? Isn't that just an overall waste of time when it could be solved by making admins do their job and ban rulebreakers when they break rules?

The short answer is no.

We ban people for their actions... Not their potential / past actions.

If there is a player who has an open permban request, then they can be sanctioned, when they break the rules online.

I've already warned admins for this sort of thing before, and I'll absolutely start suspending admins that I find banning players for no reason, which this would be classed as.

Under exceptional circumstances where the player poses a genuine threat to the stability of the server, authority sits with the executive ban manager, lead developer or owner of the server to issue / approve the banning of players where open indef ban requests are outstanding.

I won't lock this thread now because I'm sure there's more discussion to be had, but that's the policy as it stands unless someone can make a really good case for banning players for no reason.

Object

A player should be permbanned when a request is accepted, not before.

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@wild1145#18246 We ban people for their actions... Not their potential / past actions.

That's why I'm against preventive ban.

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@wild1145#18246 authority sits with the executive ban manager, lead developer or owner of the server to issue / approve the banning of players where open indef ban requests are outstanding

What about suspending the 24 hours expiration while an indef ban request is open for the same reason the player has been banned? For example, a mass griefer gets banned, a request is filed for that reason, the ban won't be lifted until the ban manager rejects the request or turns it into a proper indefinite ban.

Cant we use /tempban and add our own time instead of using /gtfo which also lasts for 24 hours?

Our conduct policy is just there to give you an idea of what's bannable but doesn't restrict you to a specific timing, Im gonna have to object on this one.

@wild1145#18246 Only a very small minority of indefinite ban requests are rejected. Yes, Ashaz would have been banned for two days and no, that wouldn't have been ideal, but I cannot find any indefinite ban requests since then (January) with the Denied tag (looking through the Denied tag list of threads). If the updated system produces bugs like this at the same rate as requests are given the denied tag, that seems pretty good to me. So my case for 'banning people for no reason' is, in a nutshell: hardly anyone is getting banned for no reason, and the benefits to the safety of the server outweigh these rare problems.

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@Tizz#18290 What about suspending the 24 hours expiration while an indef ban request is open for the same reason the player has been banned? For example, a mass griefer gets banned, a request is filed for that reason, the ban won't be lifted until the ban manager rejects the request or turns it into a proper indefinite ban.

In that scenario when they next came on and griefed they'd be banned anyway.

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@GeekGuy432#18296 Ryan Only a very small minority of indefinite ban requests are rejected. Yes, Ashaz would have been banned for two days and no, that wouldn't have been ideal, but I cannot find any indefinite ban requests since then (January) with the Denied tag (looking through the Denied tag list of threads). If the updated system produces bugs like this at the same rate as requests are given the denied tag, that seems pretty good to me. So my case for 'banning people for no reason' is, in a nutshell: hardly anyone is getting banned for no reason, and the benefits to the safety of the server outweigh these rare problems.

It doesn't really matter though, you're still banning someone for something they haven't done, while a decision is still reached... If there is a genuine threat to the server, raise it with the ban manager who can either expedite the permban, or will authorise admins to temporarily ban a player when the ban is removed after 24 hours.

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@simplynick#18292 Cant we use /tempban and add our own time instead of using /gtfo which also lasts for 24 hours?

It should cap at 24 hours... If it doesn't it probably needs to, and if admins are using this to ban people for stupid time windows then words will need to be had with those individuals...