Wild1145 - Breaking UK Law (copyright infringement)

Luke · April 10, 2022 at 10:04 AM

i swear the same fuckers wanting to ban and vote out ryan are the same fuckers who wanted to get rid of seth. almost as if theyre never happy?

Spicee · April 10, 2022 at 10:16 AM

I remember Ashaz posted a thread in this forum about his forum acc was accessed by Seth, before he attempted to destroy the server. Now I imagine if this or other threads in the future have controversies about Ryan, he may could destroy the server too. You think it would happen or not?

elmon · April 10, 2022 at 11:47 AM

↩ Michelangelo That’s not true. For one party to comply with another’s request there is no necessity for there to be a chain of command (in the sense of a rank hierarchy, perhaps if you argue a social chain of command of sorts which would also refute your argument)

Folfy_Blue · April 10, 2022 at 2:34 PM

Hey I was bored so I traced Wild's profile picture back to it's source.
Here it is: https://mindypeltier.com/do-you-sacrifice-burnt-offerings/

And here's the full res image!

Miasmus · April 10, 2022 at 4:34 PM

↩ RedEastWood I don't think people are blind to the changes between Seth and Ryan regarding professionalism, they just don't think its a good development for the server - your post seems to assume Ryan's path is a good one for the server. I believe the server shouldn't become corporatised. Even if Ryan did point out that was his goal from the start, what difference does that make? Did we have the authority to just kick him out if we didn't like his plans?

Tizz · April 10, 2022 at 5:13 PM

↩ Michelangelo I wasn't there when it happened so I don't know what's been said but I think you're overestimating the average teenager's ability to fully understand Ryan's long term plans stated in his ownership application.

RedEastWood · April 10, 2022 at 6:07 PM

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↩ Miasmus your post seems to assume Ryan’s path is a good one for the server.
↩ RedEastWood and while I have relentlessly gone against Ryan in the past and I do think corporatisation of this server is not the way forward

I should have been clearer in the latter sentence, the grammar is weird there.

RedEastWood · April 10, 2022 at 6:10 PM

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↩ Michelangelo While Ryan described big plans he had for the server, actions such as what’s been described in Red’s post were not laid out in the slightest.

“There are going to be things with TF that I want to formalise and run more like a business compared to how the server has previously been ran, in part that's because it's what I feel comfortable with, but I think some level of order and being professional is going to be needed in order to present ourselves in a sane way and to grow.”

“My attitude always has been and continues to be that while community engagement is encouraged and will always be taken into my decision making, however just because there is a community majority on a suggestion / proposal / anything else, does not mean that is the decision I will make, I am happy to take guidance from the community, but will not feel forced down a route if I feel it is not in the best interests of the server.”

I think it’s pretty clear that Ryan wanted TF to become a business, and that he will create a greater power dynamic for the owner…

Source - https://forum.totalfreedom.me/d/217-prioriti…he-future-of-tf c.Nov2020

**JagWire** · April 10, 2022 at 6:15 PM

↩ Spicee
Those are two completely different sets of circumstances.

Firstly, the accessing of Ashaz's account, in the eyes of Seth (and some other admins who had involvement in that situation), they saw nothing wrong with that. In fact, the whole thing was intended to be swept under the rug, but someone bragged about it. After someone reached out to Ashaz, and realised he had no knowledge of this, a thread was made and it was brought to light. Subsequently, a vote-off thread was made, which essentially caused the chain reaction of Seth removing the entirety of TF.

But TL;DR, a perfectly justified vote-off as a result of unethical behaviour from owner resulted in server being nuked.

In this case, Ivan attempted to impersonate being an employee of ATLAS. That is actually a cat 0 offence in itself:

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c. Any action / content (of any sort) which brings the reputation of ATLAS Media Group Ltd or its projects (Which include TotalFreedom) into disrepute.

I've been admin here for nearly 9 years and will say that Ivan has been…renowned for this sort of behaviour in the past.. I think he has had his chances and is going to just have to live with that.

Luke · April 10, 2022 at 6:29 PM

↩ Miasmus you clearly weren’t around for the smartnt days where the direction for the server was ‘do whatever robin found funny’

**Alco_Rs11** · April 10, 2022 at 6:50 PM

I always find it funny that whenever a habitual rulebreaker who has a reputation for doing retarded things gets removed for doing something stupid. People always then try and find ways to try and invalidate their ban and make a shitshow out of it despite there being evidence to make said ban valid. This whole 'discussion' likely wouldn't happen if a complete nobody was banned for the same reasons.

Ivan's ban is 100% justified.
New Policy:

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5) Don’t pretend you’re someone you are not.

Old Policy:

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0c. Any action / content (of any sort) which brings the reputation of ATLAS Media Group Ltd or its projects (Which include TotalFreedom) into disrepute.

jwmphall · April 10, 2022 at 7:00 PM

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↩ Alco_Rs11 This whole ‘discussion’ likely wouldn’t happen if a complete nobody was banned for the same reasons.

Well if it had been a complete nobody, it's likely an IBR would've been filed instead of it being processed solely by the owner - allowing time for admins to discuss. Needless to say I doubt a 'complete nobody' would even ever be punished for something like this regardless.

jwmphall · April 10, 2022 at 7:14 PM

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↩ burger Under Seth people complained about his chaotic ownership, now under Ryan people complain about his no bullshit approach

"It's so weird the moderates complain about both anarchy and totalitarianism! C'mon pick one!"

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↩ @SaturnRayo but atleast appreciate that the server which had already died is now ok thanks to him

Nobody is calling into question Ryan's contributions to the server.

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↩ @SaturnRayo Ryan is the owner, essentially the person keeping this server alive.

But he doesn't have to be. There are others that would be willing to do it if Ryan stepped down. The only reason somebody didn't assume the position in October was Ryan was going to discontinue the server instead of hand over ownership.

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↩ RedEastWood i doubt you can go into any store’s shop and demand the owner makes changes, or that the owner sympathises with you

But TF shouldn't be a store, or a product; like how Ryan's vision frames it. If anything TF is like a daycare or a community park. It would be totally reasonable to have complaints with the owners of said institutions if malpractice was taking place, and they would be inclined to listen.

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↩ @'phrman' i swear the same fuckers wanting to ban and vote out ryan are the same fuckers who wanted to get rid of seth. almost as if theyre never happy?

You're telling me the same people that couldn't stand a ruthless owner and censorship are the same people that can't stand a ruthless owner and censorship? What a bunch of fuckers.

RedEastWood · April 10, 2022 at 7:15 PM

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↩ jwmphall But TF shouldn’t be a store, or a product; like how Ryan’s vision frames it. If anything TF is like a daycare or a community park. It would be totally reasonable to have complaints with the owner’s of said institutions if malpractice was taking place, and they would be inclined to listen.

I completely agree with you, I was just stating how it is as opposed to how it should be.

SaturnRayo · April 10, 2022 at 8:38 PM

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↩ jwmphall Nobody is calling into question Ryan’s contributions to the server.

That's correct, however I only meant that a coin has two sides, and you cannot always acknoweldge that only one side (as it seemed to me that part of the community/posters here do so), especially since the other side exists too.

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↩ jwmphall But he doesn’t have to be. There are others that would be willing to do it if Ryan stepped down. The only reason somebody didn’t assume the position in October was Ryan was going to discontinue the server instead of hand over ownership.

Tempted to ask who are willing to, but that's not what I think should be the answer to your comment. I initially wrote what I wrote because Ryan is the owner, so ofc you can say "but he doesn't have to be", but that would just ignore my point. Also if Ryan does not want to step down (not talking about October, but about now), and he isn't neglecting or harming the server/community in any way, then why even think about replacing him?

jwmphall · April 10, 2022 at 8:56 PM

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↩ @SaturnRayo and you cannot always acknoweldge that only one side (as it seemed to me that part of the community/posters here do so)

This is usually called a negativity bias, present in basically all humans. This is not a problem with dissenters, but with the lack of fanfare when something desirable happens. Though I'd argue bad things seem to happen here more than good things in relation to management.

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↩ @SaturnRayo Tempted to ask who are willing to

I won't pretend to offer an alternative. As for your original point, I stated "but he doesn't have to be" because being owner should not be a defense that excuses you from certain scrutiny. You can't use "essentially keeping the server alive" as a positive because that is literally the job of an owner.

RandomCommentator · April 10, 2022 at 8:57 PM

i bet this server cannot live without drama

**wild1145** · April 10, 2022 at 8:58 PM

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↩ @SaturnRayo then why even think about replacing him?

Because people don't like that I tell them to go fuck themselves… A lot of people are still used to the times when Seth was running the server, when if you moaned / threatened to vote them off, he'd flex to let you do what ever the fuck you wanted. I've also tried to make things simpler, remove the stupidly long policies and procedures that made TF far more corporate than what it is now, is it perfect? No. Is there more I could be doing, absolutely. Is it better than it was before? I think so.

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↩ jwmphall There are others that would be willing to do it if Ryan stepped down. The only reason somebody didn’t assume the position in October was Ryan was going to discontinue the server instead of hand over ownership.

And I've made it very clear I have no intention of stepping down. I've delegated a lot of the power I hold to Steven and Hooke for the respective game-modes, but I'm not going anywhere. Quite frankly there was never going to be someone taking it on after October because the intention was to burn the domain (Well, renew the domain, and just have it go to a blank landing page) which was what was agreed with Mark who owned it at the time.

I also want to clarify, I have no desire to "Corporatise" TF, I've wanted to put basic control in place to stop batshit crazy shit happening, like what development looked like for a long while, where the community complained because broken code was getting pushed to prod with 0 testing. The things I've put into place today, is still less strict than it was back 5+ years ago when it was being ran by just 2 dev's that knew what they were doing, and spent a lot of time working on TFM.

Bottom line is, I don't have to operate under the fear the previous two owners had where the ownership policy could (And on more than one occasion very nearly did) get abused to remove an owner to put someone in who wanted a power trip.

I'm doing my best here, Ivan and Flobbier (Which is what this comes down to) had a LOT of warnings prior to their respective bans. At this point if you don't like the fact they are banned and are going to continue to make a fuss, feel free to invite them to your own community, because they're simply not welcome here.

jwmphall · April 10, 2022 at 9:44 PM

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↩ @'Ryan' Because people don’t like that I tell them to go fuck themselves…

No shit. Not exactly premium owner behavior to be stubborn and unwilling to compromise

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↩ @'Ryan' I’ve also tried to make things simpler

By making the server a network with multiple servers that literally nobody plays on? And I guess removing policies that would restrict your power is technically making things more simple, but not in a good way

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↩ @'Ryan' I also want to clarify, I have no desire to “Corporatise” TF

And yet you partner us with your company and make rules around not bringing it into disrepute? You make the server into a network against player's wishes? As for development, don't even try to pretend development now is more organized than previous owners. I can recall countless examples of poor management of developers: whether that be high workload, confusing prohibitive decisions regarding fixes, or even the wasted effort put into additions that failed immediately.

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↩ @'Ryan' I don’t have to operate under the fear the previous two owners had where the ownership policy could (And on more than one occasion very nearly did) get abused to remove an owner

You should have no fear of a vote off if you do your job effectively. Your admittance that you can ignore this fear shows you couldn't care less what the community thinks.

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↩ @'Ryan' I’m doing my best here, Ivan and Flobbier (Which is what this comes down to) had a LOT of warnings prior to their respective bans

Even if they received warnings for other things, their ban reasons were hitherto unprecedented - so the warnings are moot.

**wild1145** · April 10, 2022 at 10:04 PM

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↩ jwmphall No shit. Not exactly premium owner behavior to be stubborn and unwilling to compromise

Ahh yes, because bending over and letting everyone get their own way 100% of the time has done so well.

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↩ jwmphall By making the server a network with multiple servers that literally nobody plays on?

You mean the one server that was actually really active until our community with your type of toxic behaviour alienated them and made them all leave? That sounds about right.

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↩ jwmphall And I guess removing policies that would restrict your power is technically making things more simple, but not in a good way

The policy still exists, there's a comment to go "It can't be enforced any-more because I own the domain" but it's still there. I actually went to efforts to remove the stupidly long conduct policy that had turned into an act of law and replace it with something people actually read and we can expect to read. I've also made various changes to other policies and procedures to try to remove some of the nonsense nobody was reading, and make peoples lives simpler on here.

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↩ jwmphall And yet you partner us with your company and make rules around not bringing it into disrepute?

Which was exactly what I stated I would do when I put my name forward to be owner… And is exactly what I have done. I don't see how that is a surprise?

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↩ jwmphall You make the server into a network against player’s wishes?

There was no real view either way when this happened, we already had a "Hub" and this was the next logical step to making this a usable experience. If people don't like it, maybe they should suggest it instead of throwing a paddy.

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↩ jwmphall As for development, don’t even try to pretend development now is more organized than previous owners. I can recall countless examples of poor management of developers: whether that be high workload, confusing prohibitive decisions regarding fixes, or even the effort put into additions that failed immediately.

The ask on the dev team has been crystal clear for some time, the fact the work that is a priority to me, and the server isn't what interests them, and then they don't do it, is not something I can control. I agree there has been confusion over the exact process to do some things like cut releases and publish them, but that impacted one person, not the entire team.

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↩ jwmphall You should have no fear of a vote off if you do your job effectively. Your admittance that you can ignore this fear shows you couldn’t care less what the community thinks.

I absolutely care what the community thinks, I don't care to be blackmailed into doing what you and a handful of others want just because you're more interested in the power. I also don't fear a vote off because there is simply no way for it to be enforced any-more, which means I can make the tough decisions that aren't always liked in an effort to make things better.

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↩ jwmphall Even if they received warnings for other things, their ban reasons were hitherto unprecedented - so the warnings are moot. This would be like getting a speeding ticket, then being executed for jaywalking because you have a criminal record.

No this is more akin to you getting 20 speeding tickets, then getting executed for running a child over doing 90 in a 20.

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↩ Michelangelo Nobody likes it when a question is raised about how the server is operated and they’re told to go fuck themselves.

As far as I'm aware, that's not happened. I've aimed to be pretty transparent with my decision making, where I've told people to go fuck themselves is where they continue to stretch and push the boundaries, and ultimately cause more destructive action to the server then any net benefits.

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↩ Michelangelo It’s absolutely unprofessional and just about sums up the irony of this supposed corporate attitude from which the server has seen little benefit.

Which sort of proves my point, there has been no "Corporate Attitude", I've been trying to push some industry best practice into our development process, and try to formalize things like releases, but ultimately gave up on it. The entire point being to ensure suggestions are actually at least tracked so they can be done rather than forgotten.

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↩ Michelangelo There have been players and admins alike willing to take on the server’s ownership. If you were actually willing to pass the baton, it’s that there wasn’t anyone to your liking who would run the server and this is why you’re still in control of it.

The reality is that's not quite true, Steven has taken over the running of the Freedom server because he reached out when I was considering turning everything off, and made sense as the person to actually continue to run with the day to day operations of that game-mode, and because I wanted to focus on the other game-modes and plans I had which was hopefully going to bring in more players.

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↩ Michelangelo You’ve shown no respect at all for your predecessor, Seth, or the circumstances that he was under despite exaggerating your own on several occasions.

Also not in any way true, I on many many occasions have explained how I very much see the stresses Seth was under, and spoke with Seth himself on the matter after I took over. The fact he lasted as long before throwing in the towel because frankly a lot of the noise that gets to me (And I suspect got to him) is toxic as fuck, and doesn't make the community a pleasant one to run a lot of the time. I'd also say I don't think you have any idea what my personal circumstances are, quite frankly I'm not convinced you're an active member of the community, or if you are you're one whom has been perm-banned given the nicely timed appearance of your account.

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↩ Michelangelo Is this supposed to mean “less strict” in terms of its code or are you saying that the rules were being enforced more strictly five years ago than they are now? If you’re claiming the latter then that’s flat-out wrong and I hope nobody really believes that. At least Total Freedom was not being held to the standards of UK law five years ago.

I'm referring to development, as you would understand by the context under which I replied. The law point is true, we were never previously governed by UK Law, but historically we've had US owners of the server, so have been governed by US Laws which were enforced where reported. It's the only reason we continue to have mention of enforcing US Law in our community guidelines.

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↩ Michelangelo That’s because you’ve stated on multiple occasions that you don’t plan on following the policy. If you won’t follow the policy, why should it be in place?

I've always acted and followed the policy, I've actually clarified that the policy is not able to be enforced, not that I would not follow it.

In any case, all of this is off topic, if folks want to continue this discussion, I'm happy to do so on another thread. But if the report here wants to be treated with any sort of genuine care, this is just one big off-topic thread.