The Case for Block Gravity

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  • Over the past few weeks a very large change in the server has happened, and it has affected some people while others have been completely unaware.

    Block Gravity has been disabled.

    This is one of the biggest problems we’ve had since coreprotect, and it is a complete mistake in my view, and is harming the way many people build.

    Let me explain why we can not disable block gravity.

    For over a year now gravity has been enabled on TF, and it has had relatively 0 consequences.

    I don’t recall a single crash in the past year, or a single lag machine I’ve seen that used Block Gravity to lag the server. I’m sure there have been atleast a few incidents, but they have been extreme rarities and have not at all been a major cause of crashes.

    Why we need it to be enabled

    Gravel has been enabled, and the whole player base has been aware of this, and it shocked me to hear that Ryan didn’t know. He told me gravel being enabled was a “bug” and I say thank god for that bug for terraforming everything i’ve ever built on TF.

    Gravel has been enabled for a year, and it has almost never caused any issues, and it has been a beneficial tool for terraforming.

    I have used this on a daily basis all of last year and this year, and have used it to make mountains, plateaus, landscapes, valleys.

    The method I have used has been making a brush with //sphere 5 or 6 and making piles of gravel, the gravity that affects the block makes it fall in a natural looking way, and afterwards i turn it all to grass blocks, and then turn the dirt that formed under the grass to stone.

    This has given me some incredible looking landscapes and incredible plateaus for builds to be placed on.

    It would be remarkably devastating for me, and for many other builders who use this method of terraforming, to lose such a great great tool that is block gravity.

    The benefits have been very worth it, and the consequences are near none.

    I am currently putting a map I am working on for the ECM on hold, because I’m unable to terraform the land for it, and I don’t know how I am going to be able to complete it. I will resume work building once I have access to terraforming tools.

    Here are some options we could choose from on solutions to the block gravity debate.

    What are our options

    Option 1. The way it’s been

    Option 1 is going back to the way it’s been for the past year which is block gravity has been enabled, and so has gravel, builders are able to utilise gravel, and crashes from it are relatively rare.

    Ryan has said that gravel being enabled is a bug, but to me and builders who’ve always used it it’s a bug we cannot stand to lose.

    With this option gravel will remain enabled.

    Option 2. The way it’s been made

    Currently with option 2 it is that block gravity has been disabled, and builders like myself who have used it for a year in order to build practically everything, are cut off from it, and terraforming is made near impossible on a large scale.

    While some argue that this is in order to enable gravity affected blocks such as sand, concrete powder, and others, it is a trade off which in my opinion is absolutely not worth it.

    And enabling those blocks in my opinion would not even cause much of a problem with block gravity being the way it is.

    Which leads me to option 3.

    Option 3. We do an experiment.

    I suggest we enable block gravity like how it has been enabled, and along it enable all gravity affected blocks. We test it for a week or a month, or however long is necessary to see if the server is in shambles from lag, and crashes.

    If it isn’t going terribly wrong in that amount of time, we can conclude that the problem this whole ideal is based off of may not have existed in the first place.

    If these ideas seems problematic to you why don’t we go to option 4.

    Option 4. A Compromise

    If the risk in having gravity affected blocks is true, which I highly doubt, we should make it the way it was a couple days ago, where block gravity is toggled off by default, but can be toggled on by a command done by an admin.

    This option will allow builders to use gravity when they need it, and for the admins not deal with these supposed issues when it isn’t in use.

    I do not think there is any issue with having it that way, with a compromise.

    and I’m curious to hear the community’s views on it.

    Griefing

    One common issue that has been brought up is griefing with block gravity.

    Overall I would say that this is a rarity. It isn’t common that people grief things with falling blocks, but in the isolated incidents when it does happen, here is what can be done.

    An admin can fly above the place the gravel or the gravity affect block has fallen, and use /ins to find who did it.

    Falling blocks do not create untraceable griefs, they just need to be traced above the spot it’s fallen at.

    If the gravel has made a giant mess and is not able to be rolled back, an admin or the builder can use //replace gravel with air to fix it.

    I would also like to point out that there are other ways to make hard to trace, or hard to fix griefs.

    Such as flying machines.

    As an off topic I need to point out we don’t straight up ban redstone because it could theoretically be used to cause griefs, and I ask we apply that same logic to block gravity, and deal with the incidents that do happen, instead of banning of the method of griefing all together.

    This problem would also be nearly impossible to exist with option 4.

    Conclusion

    I once again must state that losing gravity is an absolute devastating blow to me and to the building community as a whole, and is not worth it for a couple new block choices.

    This is one of the most passionate posts I have ever made, and I make this for the sake of all builders on the server, and for the future of terraforming.

    I urge you all to read all of my points before you give your opinion, and you take this as seriously as it needs to be, because the wrong decision for this will and has already had major consequences for the builders who relied on gravity.

    The importance of this cannot be understated.

    Thank you

  • I honestly vouch just based on the fact you've written all this because you want the most annoying block in the game to have the feature that makes it annoying enabled.

    Changing to neutral as per @wild1145's post as I haven't had time to fully read

    Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter.

  • Could I ask folks who reply to this to reply in detail beyond the usual vouch / object. There's a lot to discuss here and this will be reversing an already approved suggestion so I'd like to see some strong reasoning behind doing so.

    I'll post my own response to this later.

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK

  • right so i honestly see this from two perspectives

    On one hand: while in recent history it may not have been used to crash the server, it really can do if someone sets a bunch of falling blocks like gravel. a bunch of falling entity's isn't healty server side, and especially client side so i do understand why its blocked given the people i've spoken to and my own personal assumption

    On the other: i feel this switch off would have more of the vanilla taken out of the server, that doesn't sound like a big deal written like that as hardly any of the vanilla components like item drops from blocks and people are off, entities dont spawn and all that lot. i dont think its healthy for us to keep straying away from restricting certain aspects of the server. sure its for stability sake which is understandable as theres probably no simple fix for it instead of having like a small group of blocks fall at one time in like a queue but i aint got a fucking clue if its even possible. but my point here is, is that people do use falling blocks for legitimate reasons, a strong one for example is terraforming with worldedit. an easy compromise here would probably sort a form of plugin to facilitate that action but that'll come with its own problems. another could be just the common folk trying to build something that requires this mechanic but then finds out it doesn't work. they'll leave and fuck off elsewhere because in their minds the freedom aspect they come for is a bit bullshit. would not be the only reason to lead to that conclusion tho at the moment

    assrix, assryx, asterisk, *

    awesomeist tf blokey

  • How to lag the shit out of the server and people's clients using block gravity and WorldEdit:

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tuJfqkZinwQ/maxresdefault.jpg

    Option 4 was already implemented and is a good compromise. I added /toggle gravity specifically to make sure that people who need it can still get it.

    image.png

  • Also for clarity your options are.

    1) We continue to disable gravity and enable all blocks in world edit that currently are or should be disabled.

    2) We undo the community decision to allow these blocks and re enable gravity.

    Those are basically the two options we have at this point. We know it causes lag and greif which is challenging to restore, and we know there is a current bug where sand and gravel is allowed when it should never have been.

    I was asked to disable gravity in order to enable blocks like concrete powder and such, if the community has changed its mind then that's fine. But I do want to make sure we're clear with the actual options here.

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK

  • @wild1145#17952

    3 options because I feel like you wouldn’t be happy with option #3

    1. We have it the way it was a couple weeks ago, gravity always enabled, those certain blocks disabled, and gravel enabled

    2. The one you did which i am upset about, where you disable it all together, but reenable those certain blocks

    3. We make a compromise and make gravity automatically disabled, but ops can ask admins to enable it when they want to use it to build (all blocks enabled)

  • Quote

    @UnderTails#17965 We make a compromise and make gravity automatically disabled, but ops can ask admins to enable it when they want to use it to build (all blocks enabled)

    This is already a thing and is how things are implemented right now.

    image.png

  • @UnderTails#17965 I've laid out the options that the community has... You can't create options where there are none. I won't sacrifice the stability and performance of the server over this.

    The community can continue with gravity disabled and various blocks that are currently blocked re enabled. Or you can go back to how it was before the latest tfm release and have gravity with none of the blocks which can cause such lag through falling disabled.

    Those are the only options here as I said.

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK

  • @videogamesm12#17983 it was changed recently to no longer work, and is always off now.

    I am perfectly happy with it being the way it was where an admin had to to toggle it, i would prefer the way it was before before though.

  • Quote

    @UnderTails#18014 it was changed recently to no longer work, and is always off now.

    Nothing has changed according to the GitHub.
    https://github.com/AtlasMediaGrou…entBlocker.java

    Admins who claim it doesn't work likely don't realize that the command /gravity does not toggle block gravity. The correct command is /toggle gravity. Nothing has changed since that suggests this doesn't work period.

    Quote

    @UnderTails#18014 I am perfectly happy with it being the way it was where an admin had to to toggle it,

    This is still the case.

    Quote

    @UnderTails#18014 i would prefer the way it was before before though.

    Unfortunately the way it was way before could be used to severely lag the server.

    image.png

  • Quote

    @wild1145#17986 I won't sacrifice the stability and performance of the server over this.

    i don’t know what exactly you’re referring to, if you think that like a week ago the server was drastically less stable, i personally have experienced 0 change

    The bug you are referring to was something we’ve had for over a year, and it’s never been a major cause of problems, to the point it’s not really a bug anymore, that was just something we liked having.

    If it was causing rampant stability issues, frequent crashes and other issues someone by now would have noticed and made a suggestion to disable gravel. This has never happened.

    Tbh the fact you only found out that gravel has been enabled for a full year this evening proves my point. But i’m willing to hear your opinion.

    With what video said above I personally have no problems with gravity being disabled by default, but it should absolutely be toggleable by admin commands, if you disagree and think it should be completely hard coded, no exceptions ever I’m curious to hear why.

    I don’t want to get in another jousting match with you so why don’t we just let the community express what they think of this first.

  • @videogamesm12#18033

    Quote

    Admins who claim it doesn't work likely don't realize that the command /gravity does not toggle block gravity. The correct command is /toggle gravity. Nothing has changed since that suggests this doesn't work period.

    Actually, UnderTails asked me to test it not so long ago with the /toggle gravity command. The blocks place without gravity until updated by a neighbouring block.