Network-wide proposal: Basic chat filter

vouch i’m fairly sure one of the biggest opposers to this was videogamesm12 and i’m fairly sure that was for stupid ‘preserving the nature of tf’ stuff but don’t quote me there i may be really badly misremembering

either way a chat filter is necessary to stop slurs and the like and if we do it so it’s only to stop slurs and such then i don’t exactly see any shortcomings. just don’t fall for that scunthorpe issue or whatever it is coco was saying

Vouch, seeing the n word repeated in chat over and over is getting boring at this point, and a chat filter would at the very least force people who want to spam slurs to figure out a bypass.

Vouch, sometimes people say bad stuff and we forgive because they didn't know it's not allowed, with a chat filter they'd have to purposely bypass it to say bad words and we can punish them better.

I'm vehemently against the idea of a chat filter because:

1. They are never perfect and can have false positives and false negatives
2. They are incredibly easy to bypass to the point where it would become a game of whack-a-mole with the filter, where it becomes increasingly necessary to add onto the filter
3. Chat filters never take context into account
4. It could lead to us eventually using it to punish those who practice thoughtcrime (such as whose who question how we run the server) or use profanity
5. Admins exist to keep the chat from being a slur-filled shithole

I'm also against the idea of banning someone automatically if they use a slur, because this isn't the days of 2020 when we had the Zero Tolerance Policy. I prefer not enough enforcement over too much enforcement.

Quote from videogamesm12

They are never perfect and can have false positives and false negatives

We could quite simply ban the exact use of the word. To use an appropriate example, let's say we want to ban the word ice. We block the word "ice", by itself, so people can say nice, iced etc. This removes a lot of chance of false positives.

To say they aren't perfect isn't incorrect.. but doesn't solve anything. Because the current system of just dealing with it after it happens also isn't perfect.

And if all we're banning is the f slur and n word, there's only really one word in the English language that contains one of these words inside of it and nobody actually uses it for its intended purpose anymore since it's a bit outdated. (I used it once without realising but if it was blocked I could've seen why and chosen a different word).

Quote from videogamesm12

They are incredibly easy to bypass to the point where it would become a game of whack-a-mole with the filter, where it becomes increasingly necessary to add onto the filter

I'm sure deauthorized has a proper response to this but to quote frizzydoggy twice, bypassing the filter shows the type of bad faith that ensures that it wasn't just a slip up. And as he said on the discord, people bypass bans. But we still ban people. Restrictions are bypassed all the time all over the place but they still exist and still help.

What's more, if there was some sort of notification of the filter triggering, like potspy and cmdspy, this becomes an almost non issue. Sure, they're still likely able to spam the slur with a g changed to a 6, but staff members online are more prepared since they saw what message the person tried to send.

Quote from videogamesm12

Chat filters never take context into account

There is absolutely zero context in which dropping one of those two aforementioned slurs should be deemed acceptable anyway, and that's the most basic filter I can think of.

Quote from videogamesm12

It could lead to us eventually using it to punish those who practice thoughtcrime (such as whose who question how we run the server) or use profanity

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by this? I'm not sure so won't give it a proper response yet.

Quote from videogamesm12

Admins exist to keep the chat from being a slur-filled shithole

Yes, and a feature like this can be a tool that helps admins out, it isn't suggesting to auto ban anyone who drops a slur. There is literally nothing an admin can do to stop someone beginning to spam slurs since they can only act after the persons sent them. This suggestion completely eliminates a players ability to say the regular slur and would alert an admin to the chance that they do try and bypass - or even better, prevent them from getting into any trouble entirely in the event they choose a different word.

If in theory this was a thing during the akefu raids we all annoyingly love to gloat about, many of the alts would have been able to have been banned before they got a chance for one of their messages to be publically viewable.

Honestly this is a great idea as long as it doesn't auto-ban players. I'm all for a chat filter just to prevent the usual tweenager who has just discovered what slurs are, but if the system ends up auto-banning people for it, you wind up with the "/rl" and "/mat" situation where people try to trick each other into tripping the filter and getting banned. Even preventing only the base words from appearing in chat will help immensely to clean things up and prevent a lot of people from going further.

Quote from videogamesm12

They are never perfect and can have false positives and false negatives

have you had an issue with the one on Discord so far?

Quote from videogamesm12

They are incredibly easy to bypass to the point where it would become a game of whack-a-mole with the filter, where it becomes increasingly necessary to add onto the filter

compared to now where it’s whack a mole with people saying the slur?

Quote from videogamesm12

Chat filters never take context into account

i’d like you to explain this point more in particular in what context would this be acceptable

Quote from videogamesm12

It could lead to us eventually using it to punish those who practice thoughtcrime (such as whose who question how we run the server) or use profanity

video try not to use 1984/churchill stuff (impossible)

honestly video you gotta humble yourself the only person who’d be able to do this is you if we have a filter set only to ban the n word/the f word/other slurs. if it’s in config.yml.

Quote from videogamesm12

Admins exist to keep the chat from being a slur-filled shithole

by that extent we should also remove long term bans. admins exist to ban the users on sight. we should also remove /gtfo, as admins can kick on site. we should also remove /report because admins should be able to see what’s going on.

Video dead honest here you’re too stuck in the past. smartnt was over three years ago. you gotta let go of the idea of ‘executive corruption’ when for one YOU ARE IN CHARGE OF THE EXECUTIVES IF THEY BEGIN TO BAN ‘THOUGHTCRIME’ THEN REMOVE THEM

but other than that you gotta stop letting things progress out of fear for it becoming smartnt, if shit begins to get worse then do something about it as owner…? don’t just block decisions out of fear of what ifs, just take action when those incredibly unlikely ‘what ifs’ happen

Quote from Luke

i’d like you to explain this point more in particular in what context would this be acceptable

Depending on the filter, the Scunthorp problem might be the only time, but honestly I think the chat filter requires a space around the text if it's on a bad word list so it shouldn't in reality be an issue.

We don't need an automatic filter as an advanced moderation tool. We don't need a system to automatically catch any attempt to get around it. We have plenty of staff that are doing a good job at cleaning che chat up.

The appropriate purpose of it in a community like ours has already been explained here:

Quote from erin

I used it once without realising but if it was blocked I could've seen why and chosen a different word

Quote from erin

bypassing the filter shows the type of bad faith that ensures that it wasn't just a slip up

We just need the most basic words list with the ones that would lead to an immediate mute or smite and censor or block the message. That way the players know they can't say that here before they do and get an angry mob to their surprise... or pleasure.

This makes the moderators' job easier because, if they see somebody getting around the filter, they don't need to question the intent and act accordingly.

I'm confident most of us aren't crybabies that get triggered by seeing words like "gun" and need the stupid social media style censorship ("g*n").

Quote from wild1145

The intention would just to block them and potentially display a message to say the chat was not sent.

If you are proposing that we use an intentionally basic chat filter that simply rejects messages containing slurs and explains why with no repercussions (e.g. like an automatic ban), then I'm willing to compromise with this provided it isn't used to censor actual legitimate topics and we don't expand upon it further.

I'll elaborate further later today when it's not 5 am.

Luke I'll respond to your post when I wake up in a few hours, I just want to do it when I am not on the verge of falling asleep.

Quote from videogamesm12

Quote from wild1145

The intention would just to block them and potentially display a message to say the chat was not sent.

If you are proposing that we use an intentionally basic chat filter that simply rejects messages containing slurs and explains why with no repercussions (e.g. like an automatic ban), then I'm willing to compromise with this provided it isn't used to censor actual legitimate topics and we don't expand upon it further.

I'll elaborate further later today when it's not 5 am.

Luke I'll respond to your post when I wake up in a few hours, I just want to do it when I am not on the verge of falling asleep.

The point is, there is no legitimate topics where someone should be dropping slurs... We would instantly ban people for doing that anyway. This simply stops it happening in the first place and reduces the burden on admins having to be everywhere all of the time...

All i’ll say is that we’ve had the discord filter in for some time now.

There’s been exactly one example of people bypassing the filter to say stupid shit that I’m aware of and it was Video and Lyicx doing it to go against the ‘kys’ ban I made myself.

People overestimate how much others care about filters and blocks

I think if the filter is very basic it's fine, but anything more complicated than like a word list no. It's a simple but effective method of deterance

i think having it in place is better than not at all. it heavily reduces people's exposure to harmful words like slurs and such and takes away the satisfaction of saying it because you have to go out of your way to bypass the filter.

i can say FUCK THIS!!!!! and frick this!!!! and its different.

many things already contradict the idea of a 'total freedom', and i think simply trying to create a more positive and less toxic environment for this server would be a good idea.