Transparency with OPs

Neutral - As an OP I think we should have access to FSRs and Indefinite Ban requests but only the ones made regarding us, I’m sure certain forum software are able to do this, I mean an example is Hypixel’s. However I do think any indefinite ban requests or forum sanction requests about you should be visible to you and the admins only.

Edit: Change to an object

object, i don't believe hiding information and shutting down discourse is ever a good idea.

@Ivan#4254 can you give examples on what information shouldn't be public and why?

@Ivan#4259 seth had an extension to specifically hide sensitize information in a way that was only viewable to staff. i would much prefer we use this to hide information such as ways to crash the server, ips, etc.

dont think hiding why a player is banned is needed, what does that even solve? why should i, as an op, be unable to see if a player is a serial troll, griefer, or overall nuisance?

It was Wilee who championed this. His reasoning was that the ability for OPs to participate is very important if we claim that we value community input. Now that we've had this for a while, experience shows that "you cannot trust the integrity of an OP" is not a problem in practice. OPs do not tend to sway votes unless they have a very good reasoning, and if you have a very good reasoning, swaying votes is a good thing.

Also, don't forget that we don't inform users that a forum sanction request or indefinite ban request has been created, so they would not know to defend themselves if the thread wasn't public. In the case of an indefinite ban request, we are not even able to because we cannot assume that everyone playing on the server has a forum or Discord account, and informing only those who do would be unfair. Ashaz's idea also doesn't work for that reason.

Having said that, I agree that there is no need for an OP to see the IP addresses associated with an indefinite ban request. If you want to hide the evidence as well because it may contain methods to harm the server, you also need to remove the ability for OPs to vote on them.

I'm generally in agreement with you that complete transparency isn't always appropriate. I've argued this point before (and lost) but I still feel the same. Transparency is often good, but not always. I don't have any issues with Senior Admin applications being public, and if the issue is OPs voting then we can attach less weight to these votes.

As for forum sanctions and permban requests, I'm conflicted. With forum sanction requests, we are not really seeing ways to crash the server, or IP addresses etc. so I don't necessarily think that needs to be kept private. I think you make a fair point with permban requests. Also, how many people who have permban requests made against them actually argue on the request? I don't know.

When a player has crashed the the server, there are two possible causes: exploitation or abuse. Being banned for using //sphere lava 10000 is different than using minecarts in a particular manner to burn the server. Therefore, in a big chunk of permban requests, there is no information associated with the actual request that any player should not be privy to.
For the other instance, you are prescribing a solution to a false premise. The issue is not that other potential griefers get info they shouldn't - the issue is that the exploit has not been patched by our developers.
As soon as an exploit is abused to crash the server, the developer team should fix this immediately. In case the exploit is deeply-rooted within a plugin or the game itself, then the first step would be to - temporarily - ban the command/block in question, or mitigate the issue in some other manner, until a proper solution can be found. Or you could simply censor - classified infomation -. And classified does not mean the evidence, nor the reason for banning the player, only the manner in how they exploited or IP adresses, but then again, you also need to remove ops' ability to vote on permban requests if this is enacted.
The vast majority of people viewing permban requests are not griefers. This also neglects the fact that the vast majority of our playerbase simply don't attend the forum, and certainly not the permban section. And in case that some-how another griefer exploits a bug before a solution is made, then they can simply be added to the permban roster as well. It is ridiculously unfair to the defendant (lol) not to give them access to their own trial (lmao) based on a miniscule of hypothetic cases.
Edit: forgot to mention that other ops (witnesses) can provide input on the matter as well.

This same principle is also why we have a public vote on Seniors. As long as there is a limited waiting-period for new accounts on the forums to vote on polls, then there should be noting to stop them from actively participating in decisions that affect the community as a whole. Many ops have just as much (or more) "experience" as Admins on Total Freedom (E.g. Feueristic), so barring them from participation is silly in my eyes, but I can also see arguments to the contrary (e.g. political leaders selecting their cabinet, but then again Total Freedom =/= democracy when all three branches of government(roflmao) are in the hands of Admins, and to a lesser extent, ops.

Unless I see any practical issues with ops voting for seniors, then I will still be leaning against your proposal.

Object.

I don't think it's necessary because I feel it's something that doesn't need to be public. For example, as some people have brought up, if a permban request were to be made for someone, that person's going to throw a fit on the thread (I've seen it happen with player reports I've made back in the days). I feel that if someone feels they were permbanned unfairly they could just appeal like how it's always been.
I don't know what else is there besides permban requests, so that's all I can input on.

Vouch for only staff to see all forum sanctions and for you to see your own (past and present)

vouch for fsrs & ibrs on the premise that the op that is being sanctioned has the right to ask to view the sanction request, who made it and what evidence was presented so that they may defend themselves.

Object for senior apps.

Ashaz puts it pretty well:

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@Ashaz#4250 As an OP I think we should have access to FSRs and Indefinite Ban requests but only the ones made regarding us, I’m sure certain forum software are able to do this, I mean an example is Hypixel’s. However I do think any indefinite ban requests or forum sanction requests about you should be visible to you and the admins only.

I am all for transparency, but one thing I don't agree with is perm ban requests or ban appeals being public since literally their IPs are just shown to the whole world.

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@Ivan#4249 In permanent ban requests, there could be content that would allow an OP to see methods to crash the server, IPs (even though they are public information, many OPs value their privacy and would prefer their IP to stay private), and more. It also isn't someone's business to know why an OP got punished - that should be an admin only matter.

So I agree with permban requests, but I'm hoping we can come up with a better way generally of handling them, where there's a slightly more structured way of actually raising them, and where specific details like IP's and evidence can be restricted, while the notice itself can still be visible to the general public. I need to think that through a bit, and I've added FOR-3 to our Jira to investigate a good way to do that.

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@Ivan#4249 OPs shouldn't have access to Senior Admin applications - I believe the entire reason for making them publicly accessible was since there were other categories that were being made public, this became public as well. Senior Admin should be voted for by experienced players on the server, and you cannot trust the integrity of an OP. Admins are experienced and that was how Senior Admin Applications started to begin with.

I don't really have any issue with this, I'm keen to encourage everyone having the ability to have their say on all applications, like with suggestions and others. That said, I'm also not super chuffed with our current points based system, and my view is that I'd like to entirely remove vouches and objects, and go to a place where your recommendation means you're putting your balls on the block for that individual, and if they fuck up it will come back to bite you to. Then the content of the threads should be used for meaningful discussion around the candidate, and for things like evidence of them being good / bad and anything else that should help influence the decision of the EAO and the EAO Team.

I'm not going to do anything with this thread yet as I'm keen for more thoughts, and would be interested on peoples views.

Think I covered the key points in my previous post, given I raised a Jira ticket off the back of this I'll mark it as closed and approved.