Stop running in VM's and get a panel

@Telesphoreo#1385 I personally find zgrep very useful for finding almost anything in Minecraft logs. AFAIK, you can use RegEx with it to filter out exactly what you need.

I don't want to get into the entirety of the arguments in this thread, but there is one detail I would like to ask for clarification about. Currently, the server "hangs" more often than it crashes properly. One of the arguments being presented for Pterodactyl is that it is capable of automatically detecting these hangs, unlike our current bots and scripts. Wild's intent is to find the cause of the hangs and eliminate them, but given that it is impossible to guarantee that the server will never hang again, there is a still a theoretical advantage for Pterodactyl in keeping the uptime as high as possible.

With that long introduction, my question is: will the panelless setup ever be able to detect these hangs, and if not, how large will the negative effect of that be on our uptime?

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 I've already stated that they're inefficient as you have to unzip everyone and they're not easily distinguishable.

No... You don't... If you are needing to unzip, then console wouldn't help anyway given it wouldn't have the history in console from previous executions...

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 Seth's been owner for almost two years. It's not a relatively new concept. It's something we've had for a long time and know works.

Excuse me if I class 2 years as "Relatively short" in a 10 year timeline...

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 Then why don't you explain to my why I couldn't connect?

Because the NAT Port-forwarding re-directs external port 35565 to the LAN IP on port 25565. As I said on Teams... As long as the VM is listening on 25565 and you connect to the IP on 35565 it will get routed appropriately. Same for everything else. That's ultimately how the main server works, the difference being they both listen on 25565 and the ports are exposed 1 --> 1 because that's how I knew what ports needed to be exposed and didn't want to confuse things.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 Not if we have 2FA. That makes it pretty much impossible to hijack a user account even in the event of a full on breach.

And yet it's almost like that's still not the point, but hey ho.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 Well part of the job of being the owner is maintaining the server.

Yes and why waste time doing something that's frankly not needed... As I've explained... No Panel we don't need = No patching for a panel we don't need.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 And yet I would've missed it if I just hadn't happen to have left Discord open. At least I actually know now, but I would have not known at all unless you had pinged me. I don't tend to read group chat messages that I've missed while sleeping

Then I apologise, I was trying to do this in a way that didn't call you out and did not cause a conflict for the sake of it, I appreciated you hadn't logged in before with this setup and wanted to make sure you didn't feel that I was jabbing at you just because you made a mistake. If it came off anything other than me trying to discretely say "Look you dun fucked up, now you know" then that was not my intention.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 I'm not trying to sell myself as an expert. You ironically have the same problem of not being able to listen to others. I said in the first post right here:
I don't think you understand that it's not a pissing contest between who knows more about system administration. At the end of the day it boils down to what's best for the server. That's what my job is and why I'm making the suggestion.

That I appreciate, I can understand you feel this is best for the server, and as I've told you multiple times I strongly disagree. I've told you that in DM, and yet you then get shitty when I tell you on the thread that it's a no as well... I don't think this proposal is a good answer for TF and I don't think the risks outweigh the rewards.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1384 You're right, and I have every right to. I can make a legitimate suggestion. If I don't say anything, the answer is automatically no. If I make a deal about it, at least there's a chance.

And I'm not suggesting you don't, but given we discussed this multiple times in DMs and I've explained my reasoning multiple times, it feels like a waste of both our time keeping re-visiting this nearly every day now... That's why I take issue with this and the fact we're still having this discussion.

From what I recall, we used to use ClanForge back in 2014 to about 2017, which came with the Multiplay server we were using. According to the attached screenshot and my somewhat vague memory of the panel, it had the option to swap out worlds, reboot the server, use the in-game console, and view server-related statistics. It didn't have any integration with the actual Minecraft server or any other official platform.

Now, I'm absolutely not suggesting that we go back to Multiplay, but what I am suggesting is that we either find a barebones secure panel that actually logs shit and does only those things and nothing else, or we make our own panel. One that doesn't support Discord integration and doesn't allow you to integrate it with the server would be perfect.

Honestly I'm with packs on this one.

Panels offer auto-restarting on the server as well as a less-janky way of starting/stopping the server. I appreciate the effort that has gone into getting the discord bot to start / stop but it's non-reliable and it's pretty evident that the server's uptime has gone down the shitter even recently without a panel...

This consistent downtime has honestly evidently resulted in a declining playerbase and I think that a panel would mitigate this issue, at this point whether it be pterodactyl or amp

I think running it straight with a java instance was fine temporarily but now that we're in for it long-term I think it would far better suit the server if a panel was set up

@fionn#1399 The issue is the server isn't properly crashing, so the process doesn't die nor does the connection. If it did then it would be easy to automate the re-starts, but it doesn't and I'm not seeing how a panel is going to change that...

I will accept the servers stability isn't ideal, but given I've only had 4 days to actually make changes, I'm hoping people can appreciate that 4 days while working for 2 of those... The entire goal is longer term stability, and we're getting close to the point where things should be running fairly smoothly...

Quote

@wild1145#1400 The issue is the server isn't properly crashing, so the process doesn't die nor does the connection.

Yeah but to the best of my knowledge, with panels that have been designed for optimal minecraft gaming, it notices when there is a sudden stop in log writes / the server isn't possible to connect to and sends a restart function.

Overall a panel would be much more optimal because panels are specifically designed for servers while running it from a java command provides no automatic protection against crashing while to the best of my knowledge a majority of big panels do. I don't entirely understand why you're not installing a panel considering the simplicity of setting one up and how much hassle it would save long-term. I'm sure even yourself has noticed that the server is down for long periods of time due to the bot either not working as intended or an admin not being available / being oblivious to the option of restarting the server

Quote

@wild1145#1400 I'm hoping people can appreciate that 4 days while working for 2 of those...

We most certainly do appreciate everything you've done for the server and we acknowledge you have a job, we're grateful for everything you've done for TF

Quote

@fionn#1401 I don't entirely understand why you're not installing a panel considering the simplicity of setting one up and how much hassle it would save long-term. I'm sure even yourself has noticed that the server is down for long periods of time due to the bot either not working as intended or an admin not being available / being oblivious to the option of restarting the server

I think I've fairly well summed up why I don't want a panel... Especially at the moment, it's an unnecessary distraction and something we don't need... The last little bit of work we needed to do to get the scripts finished so I'm hoping that should highlight that we've done what we needed to get the bot working, and hopefully that should prove if the issue is a lack of admins in right timezones, or the server scripts not working properly.

@StevenNL2000#1387 So it's certainly possible to detect the hangs without a panel if we can't get to the bottom of what's actually causing it. Given the nature of the crashes (And lack there of proper crashing) I'm not sure any real panel is going to reliably detect this either way because it's not really crashing.

I genuinely think we can get to the bottom fo the issue, we weren't seeing this when we had the temporary server where we were getting 30-40 players on quite a lot of the time so it must be something we've more recently introduced with the plugins / configuration.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 It doesn't need every single execution. The latest one is usually fine. It's not often that I test an NPE and then immediately restart the server.

But you wouldn't get anything since the server started either way because the console is cleared when you re-start the process, otherwise what you're really looking at is effectively a log viewer which is a very different thing to the issue you raised here.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 That sounds extremely complicated. Just allow 35565 through the firewall and change it in the server.properties. I genuinely don't see any reason to overcomplicate such a dead simple thing.

Because then the servers would have even more different configuration. The point of the beta server is we can take a total clone of the live one from time to time and drop it in. The only config then that we have to change is to point at a reference core protect db rather than the ops one.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 That's what the main attack vector is, so it is the point.

The panel itself, the fact you're exposing admin access to the world on a random ass panel... That's the attack vector. In the same way SSH is an attack vector. It's a way someone could gain unauthorised access to your server. You only open those up when the benefits outweigh the costs and risks...

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 Well, because I hate working directly using screen and I'm sure many other community members would appreciate having a panel as well. I made this thread because I'm disgruntled and I want the communities opinion as well.

Then as I say, you don't have to use it. You're more than welcome to send me config and plugins and I'll do it... I've made my decision and the suggestion has been declined. I've only left the thread unlocked because I don't want to come across as an asshole for locking it mid way through this discussion.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 I brought up valid rebuttals to all of your reasons for why it won't work / it's a waste of time. That I did not say on the DM's.

Yet it somehow hasn't changed my view or position on this... As I said in DM's when we had these conversations.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 I think it's pretty necessary. It's missing some pretty damn important things that we previously had in Pterodactyl and even AMP.

But we're not... Nothing you've highlighted here are things we use. So far you've just moaned that it doesn't work how it used to work and gone out your way to be awkward about it.

Quote

@Telesphoreo#1413 That's the whole point. It's able to detect when it's in a hung up crash and can kill and restart the server automatically. I high;y doubt anyone will be able to pinpoint one exact reason to why the server keeps hanging up.

Given we have full stack traces every time it happens, and it didn't happen on the temp server, the first thing I'd do is roll back everything to then and validate that's still the case. I've got some ideas as to why it's crashing and hanging as I've said before and I personally think we should be focused on fixing that rather than masking the problem with a panel... If admins and the community aren't feeling the pain of the problem they aren't going to hold either of us to account on why it's still a problem.

Can you guys just sort this out in DMs since it’s literally only you two arguing at this point.

So in the interests of ending this before it never ends and because I really have better things to do with my time.

This thread is locked and the suggestion declined. I've made my decision on this and it is something I will re-visit in the future when it's appropriate to do so again.

I am personally fed up of having this argument when my decision had been made before the thread was opened and I think people would rather me spending my time making meaningful improvements to the server than bicker over if people want a pretty start / stop button in a UI.

If anyone want's answers to any of the topic's that I've not addressed directly especially on the more recent posts please DM me directly.