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@Miwojedk#4046 Going by this logic – do you also intend to “move” the Admin World off the freedom server, or just remove it entirely? At least MB’s have a some-what “need” for a dedicated world to build in, whereas the same cannot be said for Admins.
Yes, I think I put that on the other thread I wrote, but the intention will be the FreeOP Server will at least by my current plans just have the overworld, nether, end and flatlands. Everything else will be on dedicated servers separate from the FreeOP Experience, because frankly it's a poor use of resources when we have the capacity we have available now.
My current guess is MB's will have some sort of dedicated space to do add-hoc building they want to do, along with then having access to dedicated "Project Servers" for larger scale map projects for the server. Rather than the current MBServer which is a bit of a mess and I think just has a multi-world plugin which doesn't seem to be working well.
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@Miwojedk#4046 But from this point onwards I expect you to still weigh freedom over anything else. It would be preposterous to enable everthing on the server, which is why I never suggested it. Instead, I want us to tread carefully, and instead of immediatedly blocking a certain abused command/block, we instead confer on a non-restrictive solution to the issue at hand. If brush is used to grief, then A) simply have coreprotect log it and ban the griefer B) make brushes non-usable in a protected area (which is already the case) or C) give unlimited access to brushes in the plotworld, whilst giving slighty-limited access in the normal world (talking brush sizes 1-10).
So for me these are the sort of factors that I look at when I'm reviewing suggestions like this, and help me work out if it's viable and where it should sit on the overall priorities
- What's the likely impact of doing / not doing it. To server performance, player count and all that normal stuff
- Can I just throw the switch with no dev effort / other work required other than config? If so it's a easy win as far as I'm concerned
- Can we make sure that we can track things and have we thought through as many implications as we reasonably can to enabling functionality.
- Are more people gonna be pissed off for turning something on/off than off/on.
So yes, my view will always be on the FreeOP Server to go with "Enable by default" going forward, because I agree, that's the server we should be building. Certainly no arguments from me as long as there is an understanding that a lot of it will likely require dev effort and therefore take time to do properly.
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@Miwojedk#4046 Outright banning a command or block should always be the last resort, or – only – used in an emergency, until a viable solution is found.
Absolutely agree for most things. There are (IMO) commands that will always need to be blocked for various reasons, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here anyway, but yes in general terms we should enable by default where we can and blocking / restricting to admins only should be done as a latter resort.
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@Miwojedk#4046 Sand, water, rails etc should – not – be banned in World Edit for average players.
I would think if we can disable Gravity to stop these causing lag, or if we can find a way through something like AWE to load these in and have them do their gravity logic in smaller chunks then I would agree. I know for a while we only disabled stuff like flowing water / lava but suspect that's not the case now.
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@Miwojedk#4046 Actually having a constructive discussion on good solutions is hard indeed, and I would never claim it is to develop these nessecary changes in the plugins or management, but it is evidently clear that this is what’s required to re-popularize Total Freedom.
I agree. That combined with stable infrastructure and unique offerings to the server is what will attract more players in and help sustain the server.
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@Miwojedk#4046 If we already surrender by saying “easier said that done”, then there is no point in trying to revive the server, because clearly the will is not there.
I think it's important to highlight that a lot of this just isn't trivial... A lot of the time it is easier to say than do and we do have to be careful not to over-commit our development effort, but that's a problem for me to juggle with the dev team and is something I'm optimistic we can strike a rational balance with.
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@Miwojedk#4046 You say it needs to be done “sustainably” (no shit), but this is what we’ve done until now, which has left us with this sad excuse of an “all-op” server, where the title “operator” has lost all connotation
I'm not sure what all of the historic decisions are that have got us to where we are today, but I agree that we need to be re-visiting what we're offering players, and making sure there is something attractive there to get players involved in the community, because right now I agree that we're not best positioned compared to where we should be.
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@Miwojedk#4046 I don’t doubt that our development team (incl. You) alongside our management are more than capable of putting these nessecary changes in to action. The will just has to be there.
There is certainly a will to get things moving, and I'm sure as I continue to find my feet and our new development team start to work better together as a team after being relatively newly formed, that we will start to make this good solid progress. It's just taking a bit of time with everything else that's been hitting me and the teams to get through all the suggestions already approved and on to other things.
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@Miwojedk#4046 Okay. I can certainly say that in my 10 years on this server I have never seen the majority of the server do this.
Maybe I'm more pessimistic / have just had bad luck. I've just seen on more than one occasion as soon as there is something to break / exploit, they tend to tell their friends and it turns into a shit show fast!!
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@Miwojedk#4046 I only mentioned regions because that’s the thing I came up with within ten seconds of thinking. Obviously we need more discussion on this topic. My comment was merely an example, and if that example is not viable, then of course we need to find another solution other than restricting a certain’s block usage to a dichotomy.
It's a valid point, and I'm not sure I have a good solution off the top of my head to work out how to do that, I think initially if we can set it globally at the server level that would be a good start and would at least let us start unblocking some of these blocks that we currently don't allow due to fear of the server shitting it's pants if someone abuses it like has happened a lot historically.
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@Miwojedk#4046 Except you clearly displayed you can? In your manifesto earlier this year, you clearly stated how you would run the server this manner. As long as you don’t attempt to give off the impression of democracy, then implement a major change without community input, like our previous owner did, then I’m more than satisfied. Consistency is key, and it’s ridiculous to flail between Democracy and Autocracy. You’re the owner, you can certainly make these changes if you see them as nessecary for the betterment of the server.
I get the point, but there is also a fine line. While I can certainly do whatever I want if I alienate the entire player base and they all fuck off to another server, being able to sit on my high horse claiming I'm the owner isn't really worth squat. I'm looking to find ways to meet everyone in the middle, and find a way we can keep the worlds for as long as we can while not fucking ourselves over and a part of that is expanding into the other game modes and splitting worlds out like I've said previously.
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@Miwojedk#4046 If the only solution is this (have you discussed this with the dev team?), then wipe the plot world the fuck out and start over, put up the world file for download. It’s ridiculous to have this feature actively ruin a major aspect of the server, and then say we can’t change it because it’s a minor nuisance. If a has a previous build that doesn’t fit in a smaller plot, then tough luck – they still have it avaliable in schematic format, and can easily paste it in to the flatlands, or they can modify it to fit in to a smaller plot. Another viable option would be, as @lyDDSADSADSAND suggested, to merge several plots in to a bigger one, but I think this should only be reserved to preserve older plots in the new plot world, and not an option henceforth. It’s a blatant falsehood to say that this issue does not have a viable solution.
Seth originally implemented the plots to be something in the range of 250x250 or 500x500, and I bitched at him for this. I met him halfway, and he decreased it to 100x100. Just because this is how it’s always been is not an argument for it being a good thing. And clearly, the community agrees with me, as is evident in all the replies in this thread.
Feel free to re-read my argument:
“Make the plots far smaller (15x15, or max 30x30), this making it easy to browse a variety of different plots, and hopefully having some players near each other as they build on their own respective plot. Right now, the Plot world is boring as shit to look at. A shitty spawn, shitty plots scattered about. I have suggested this before: Make a grand spawn with MB plots located near the spawn in order to inspire and entice the average player to build.”
IF we’re going to point TF towards a community-oriented direction, then I don’t see the point in keeping the most single-player-like aspect of the server, which is why I am willing to merely decrease the plot sizes further, as this would also massively help the predicament this server is in.
By your comments, it honestly sounds like you merely don’t want these changes implemented because it’s a tad complicated or controversial to do (which it clearly isn’t). I say this, because you didn’t give any rebuttal to any of my points.
Leave this one with me, while it will be impossible (As it's world gen and that's not something to be fucked with) effectively impossible to re-size what we currently have, I need to weigh up the argument more. I've certainly not said we're not gonna do it, I'm just challenging if shrinking the plots is going to create more problems than it solves by forcing people to merge more plots to create their larger grander builds that they want to work on, or if the pro's outweigh the conn's. I'm not decided either way, it was more a conversation point. I've not played a lot of plots servers but I always assumed people would rather have larger plots to build on than having to try to claim smaller ones and struggling potentially to expand and merge them.
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@Miwojedk#4046 You didn’t respond to my question. Do you want players to be able to save their builds in the flatlands/overworld without having to worry about it getting griefed a week, a month or a year after? This is something you need to make clear.
That's the goal, at least from my perspective. For as long as the world is running, we should have life-time or as close to life-time history of every block that's been fucked with so it can be rolled back if any amount of time later it is discovered that actually there was a grief / similar. Some of this may be limited by technical constraints in the future, and we may decide that actually every 6 months we do need to wipe everything and offer it up for download, but we're still investigating if there are better / more sustainable alternatives to CoreProtect and tbh the outcome of that will determine the answer to your question.
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@Miwojedk#4046 Of course they aren’t mutually excluse, but I don’t see any point in having a plotworld, when the reason for implementing the plot world was to have a permanent safe haven for player’s builds. If you already have a permanent world, then there is literally no point in having a plot world with – big – plots, when these big builds can just be built in the normal world. See, even now, it would make a lot more sense to scale the plots down to 20x20 or 30x30.
And that's fair, I see your point. As I said on your earlier point, I'm not sure I have my mind made up either way on plot sizes. I'd be curious to see how other servers do it and the pro's / conns of having larger plot sizes. You've covered a lot of the conns of the 100 x 100 plot sizes but I've not seen a lot of the pro's to which I'd hope there are at least some.
Just to highlight, I'm not making yay / nay decisions in these replies, just giving you my personal thoughts. I'd much rather everyone get a say in this and we can work from there on what action we need to be taking to improve things.
