Reform FSRs

  • Same suggestion I made on the old forum before it was deleted. I don't remember everything from it, but I'll update it as needed.

    1. Change "Forum Sanction Request" to "Forum Report" or something along those lines.
    2. Instead of these reports being posted, have them DM'd to Forum Moderators/Admins.
    3. Change the template to something like this (getting rid of the "Requested Sanction" option):
      1. Name of forum member being reported.
      2. Which forum posting guideline(s) has the member violated? See here.
      3. Provide evidence. (i.e. screenshots, link to thread/post)
    4. Allow forum staff members to determine punishment.
    5. (Not entirely necessary) Create a punishment log for forum staff to update.
    6. Require forum staff to post request for any ban longer than one month.

    What I’m pretty much saying is we should allow forum staff to moderate on the forums the same way admins moderate punish in-game using the forum guideline (which is structured similarly to the server conduct policy).

    Here is my original post (before I had edited it to add others' suggestions) that I got from cached google history:

  • If the issue you're trying to address is that the wrong people are getting reported, this would not change the situation because the reports are the same; they just wouldn't be visible to others. On the other hand, if the issue is that people are not thinking about their vote, I am not sure that simply cutting them off is the correct solution.

  • @StevenNL2000#399 I don't believe the wrong people are being reported (other than the Ashaz case I pointed out). What I am proposing (which I will make more clear in the main thread) is that forum moderators should be able to warn/ban/restrict members on the forum the same way admins are able to warn/ban/kick/mute OPs in-game. The forum guidelines has a similar structure the server conduct policy, pretty much outlining which punishment fits what rule that was broken. Giving the choice of punishment to the reporter makes no sense to me. The issue that people are just blindly voting isn't the main reason I think people shouldn't be allowed to vote. I just find it unnecessary altogether, but in some cases, it has just been completely unfair for some people.

  • @Xen#400 Ah, you want forum sanctions to be handled the same way as ingame punishments, that is a much clearer explanation. That would definitely streamline the process, but we do lose potential valuable comments that would have been posted on the request.

  • @StevenNL2000#415 That is true, which is why we could possibly have some sort of punishment log for people to see. I don't see that as ideal, but it is a solution. A lot of people (I would assume) have enough faith in the forum staff to responsibly moderate the forum.

  • @hapi#421 Transparency is not much of an issue regarding our forum staff. Depending on who is the next owner and what forum software we are using, the owner can make sure they are doing their job correctly--along with the EAO. For me, the current forum mods/admins we have are trustworthy.

    If it is that important, then a punishment log can be created or reports can be posted and locked after they have been handled. If someone feels that another person should not have been punished, then they can DM the EAO or owner and refer to the posted report.

  • I'd rather make it so that forum sanctions can only be created by the forum staff, as they are voted in. This removes the 'reporter gets to choose the punishment' aspect. There'd also be a requirement for evidence. Then it's still a vote, as we still vote on permban requests.

    You're comparing it to like an admin, except an admin can't just permban a user without a formal vote. Therefore, there should be a vote to permban a user from the forum. Comments are valuable, and they stop unfair FSRs.

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    @Luke#444 I'd rather make it so that forum sanctions can only be created by the forum staff, as they are voted in.

    It makes no sense to require forum staff to have to post a forum request in order to have someone punished. The forum staff is not the same as the staff we have moderating in-game. These are more trusted members of our community. Public reports should not have to be made in order to punish someone (especially someone who is flagrantly violating the guidelines).

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    @Luke#444 Comments are valuable, and they stop unfair FSRs.

    Not entirely true. Many sanction requests, in my opinion, have been unfairly processed due to a bias against a player. One (the one I pointed out) was a scenario in which a player was completely innocent, but was almost perm banned because of all the comments. Granted, comments (more specifically mine) prevented it from happening, but that should never be the case. The outcome of a player's sanction request should not be based on a bunch of people voting simply because they don't like the player.

    The guidelines is pretty clear on what is what. It could use an update and some more detail on some things, but there should be no issue moderating the forums according to the guidelines and their punishments. We can also include more punishment methods along warn/ban. Restricted access of some sort could also be considered (would likely need to be a different suggestion).

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    @Xen#445 It makes no sense to require forum staff to have to post a forum request in order to have someone punished. The forum staff is not the same as the staff we have moderating in-game. These are more trusted members of our community. Public reports should not have to be made in order to punish someone (especially someone who is flagrantly violating the guidelines).

    Ight how about they have the ability to tempban up to a month w/o having to request? Anything further & permbans have to be voted upon akin to permbans?

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    @Xen#445 Not entirely true. Many sanction requests, in my opinion, have been unfairly processed due to a bias against a player. One (the one I pointed out) was a scenario in which a player was completely innocent, but was almost perm banned because of all the comments. Granted, comments (more specifically mine) prevented it from happening, but that should never be the case. The outcome of a player's sanction request should not be based on a bunch of people voting simply because they don't like the player.

    That's fair but that also applies to permbans. We can't just allow one user to permban people as they see fit, however.

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  • So let me share my 2 cent on this, because it's an interesting suggestion, but not one I fully agree with myself.

    My current thought is anyone of any rank should be able to report someone on the for breaking the rules.

    I think the decision on punishment and such should ultimately be left to the forum staff, as the in-game administrators handle the reports in game in the same way.

    I also agree that commenting on reports need to be changed, and it's something I'm keen to roll out everywhere, but would like to trial here.

    I'd like to get rid of "Vouch" and "Object" and "Neutral" as valid responses to the forum reports, I think the comments should be providing comments to help support the decision making progress, so if there is evidence to support the case, or to support the person being accused, or if there are personal experiences that are relevant, that should be in there. But it should ultimately be there for the exclusive purpose of helping form an actual decision.

    I'm keen that this is the approach we take more generally anyway, because I dislike points based voting and all that rubbish, because you end up with far more clicky groups of people running things, and ultimately the decision shouldn't be exclusively a vote call, it should be based off of the facts provided and an informed decision by the person empowered to make that decision.

    I'm open to critique, on this thought, but yeah, I agree with pretty much everything else on this thread, requesting specific sanctions is ultimately just backseat forum administrating which isn't something we really want.

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK

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    @wild1145#1015 My current thought is anyone of any rank should be able to report someone on the for breaking the rules.

    This suggestion isn't changing that. Anyone can and should be able to submit a report.

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    @wild1145#1015 I'd like to get rid of "Vouch" and "Object" and "Neutral" as valid responses to the forum reports, I think the comments should be providing comments to help support the decision making progress, so if there is evidence to support the case, or to support the person being accused, or if there are personal experiences that are relevant, that should be in there. But it should ultimately be there for the exclusive purpose of helping form an actual decision.

    I agree, but I think those comments should go on the ban appeal made by the person who has been banned. Forum staff should be competent enough to know when it is appropriate to punish someone and in what way.

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    @Xen#1028 I agree, but I think those comments should go on the ban appeal made by the person who has been banned. Forum staff should be competent enough to know when it is appropriate to punish someone and in what way.

    I disagree, that would be a bit of a "Shoot first ask questions later" sort of approach imo.

    My thought is if you're reporting someone for breaking the rules or otherwise, having meaningful evidence / supporting content is more useful to be than having 20 people reply "Vouch" or "Object", a lot of this is about knowing why someone has said they vouch or object, and that's what I'm keen to encourage with these sorts of suggestions. That's why I was proposing that if we're going to implement this sort of suggestion that actually it makes sense I think to try to reform this fully, and use this process as a pilot / exemplar of what we could do elsewhere.

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK

  • @wild1145#1031 I understand what you are saying. My issue is the amount of time it takes. I feel that requiring a request to be publically posted causes drama and is unnecessary. When comparing it to in-game moderation, it is a "Shoot first ask questions later" approach. If a user and banned on the forums, then they can appeal and a discussion can begin on a thread, that includes the user's appeal, posted by a forum staff member that has access to email appeals.

    With that said, I will vouch for the changes you've suggested. I definitely agree that this should be a pilot and we should be making adjustments as needed as we go along.

  • @Xen#1034 The difference in game though is the player can come here to make their case for why they think they were wrongly sanctioned. That's not exactly the same with the forums because you can e-mail appeal and that's it... So I personally think it's fair to hold people to a higher burden of proof when actually you should be reporting someone and taking action as a much more "last resort" compared to that of the server, but that's just my 2 cent.

    If these threads are going off topic / similar, then they should be being moderated is my general thought, I just find it more useful when people provide evidence or similar to support a report compared to just saying yay / nay which ultimately isn't super helpful...

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK