13 years of school... the result?

I disagree but also agree

Quote from characterslimits

Because for almost the entirety of human history there were no such thing as school, and yet despite that we still survived.

Yes with a literacy rate of like 10%

Quote from characterslimits

However, very recently at some point, it was decided that people must go to school.

By very recently you mean 1,600 years ago? I think they probably realized that humanity genuinely cannot function without an educated generation; without it, society would never evolve and stand still in terms of technological advancements for the rest of history. Cavemen, we would be glorified cavemen lol

I think your outlook on education really substantiates your claim about you being dumb... this is genuinely probably one of the most braindead posts I have ever seen on this forum and I have sure seen a few

The education system is not without its flaws but jesus christ removing it completely would literally result in humanity going backwards

fuck you characters you got me agreeing with fucking fionn

no but seriously its a dumb idea

Although i must say

Quote from fionn

By very recently you mean 1,600 years ago?

education became compulsory in england in 1870. even then it was very limited. Mandatory education from then was extended with the 1901 reform act, and so on. not 1600 years ago. before then it was mainly churches and rich fuckers that were able to to to school. only saying this cuz op specified ‘people MUST go to school’

i learned a lot from school.

Quote from characterslimits

Schools should just be removed entirely

*he says, writing a sentence that he couldn't have without school*

Quote from characterslimits

I'm still dumb. Seriously though, the education system is a failure. All they do is teach you about useless stuff that you aren't even going to use, and because you aren't even going to use the stuff you "learned" you just end up forgetting about it.

Schools should just be removed entirely. Why? Because for almost the entirety of human history there were no such thing as school, and yet despite that we still survived. However, very recently at some point, it was decided that people must go to school. There is no basis for doing so, it was just arbitrary decided.

Schools suck.

You write this post knowing for well that school taught you how to write, read, count and it also most likely taught you how to type and use computers in the first place. Yes, the education system does certainly have its faults but if it were removed entirely as said in posts above the literacy rate would nosedive and so would the average IQ, which obviously isn't very good for a country in the Information Age...

Please stop blaming your sub-par intelligence on the education system. Not paying attention in school isn't the school's fault, it's yours.

Quote from Allink

Quote from characterslimits

I'm still dumb. Seriously though, the education system is a failure. All they do is teach you about useless stuff that you aren't even going to use, and because you aren't even going to use the stuff you "learned" you just end up forgetting about it.

Schools should just be removed entirely. Why? Because for almost the entirety of human history there were no such thing as school, and yet despite that we still survived. However, very recently at some point, it was decided that people must go to school. There is no basis for doing so, it was just arbitrary decided.

Schools suck.

You write this post knowing for well that school taught you how to write, read, count and it also most likely taught you how to type and use computers in the first place. Yes, the education system does certainly have its faults but if it were removed entirely as said in posts above the literacy rate would nosedive and so would the average IQ, which obviously isn't very good for a country in the Information Age...

Please stop blaming your sub-par intelligence on the education system. Not paying attention in school isn't the school's fault, it's yours.

I don't see anyone blaming their stupidity on the education system here, what I see is someone analysing what they're actually being taught (read on the post where he expands on his statement). A bunch of what I learned at school has been absolutely useless for me afterward, even in the world of work. I think a modified version of the UK education system would be good though.

Primary school, 4 - 11 years old, remains same as it always has been. Then the key years (high school, 11 - 18) should be based on getting yourself ready for the industry you're wanting to go into, not a generalised education of everything. Currently, that's left too late since it's in your last couple years of school (and any further education you do, thus delaying your full entry into the industry) which doesn't give you much time to prepare.

So many people still leave school without knowing how to get by at work properly, or end up entering the world of work late and whilst they might have been great academically, they're having to completely relearn what they knew because they're in a real world situation and not a classroom where everything's theoretical. I'm one of those people, in the past year I've had to get to grips with the industry with no prior exposure to the industry what so ever, at a later stage than should've been. I don't blame it entirely on education, but if I'dve just been allowed to go out and work the trade I wanted to be in from 16 rather than *have* to go to college or 6th form, I'dve been in a much better position than I am now at only a couple of months off of being 21. But no, the system demanded I had to be educated (plot twist, I'm *technically* still in education but I spend most of my time working because of the nature of said education). Of course, in the later years of education I could've got a job at pizza hut or whatever, but I didn't want that. My focus has always been entirely on IT since I was about 11. And I'm sure all over the place, there's a bunch of young people out there like myself with more of a working nature that'd massively appreciate a reform where work is favoured over education once you've had a basic enough education generally and surrounding what you're wanting to do.

Education systems may vary significantly across the countries.

I think you live in the USA. According to many stories on the internet, your school quality ranges from excellence to 3rd world shithole.

Still, schools are more than necessary, ESPECIALLY in the era of information. We're so bombarded with information that critical thinking is a requirement for a society not to collapse on itself. Actually good schools help you develop that skill.

Uneducated people like you are the reason cultists, crooks and dishonest people keep exploiting people and profiting from them.

this thread is ignoring the need for secondary socialisation within school. kids need to learn social and cultural norms by growing up and learning with each other. how’d you propose this happens? what do you propose kids even do between the ages of 4-18? what about the parents who need to go to work?

Quote from characterslimits

School only teaches us what's already discovered by someone else. School is not going to tell you how to make Quantum Computers or how to travel faster than light. Just think, the people that discovered electricity wasn't taught about electricity in school.

And by teaching us what has already been discovered by someone else, it helps us come up with ideas and creations of our own. That's the real value

of school, in my opinion.

Quote from characterslimits

Typing and using basic end user functionality of computers is common sense. For typing, you just press a key and the letter just shows up. For computers, press a button and the screen comes on, you would learn how to use the mouse on your own.

For the advanced, power-user functionality, just look it up or use YouTube.

No, basic computing functions are certainly NOT common sense. I probably shouldn't be talking here as I've been using computers from a very young age and feel I can become reasonably adept at handling a complex application within a few minutes. But, for the average person who hasn't been using computers, it isn't as simple as that. How are the "caps lock", "shift", "backspace", "alt", "ctrl" and "alt gr" keys common sense? How exactly are you supposed to know what they mean from the moment you look at a keyboard? I agree that a mouse is certainly a simple concept to grasp once you've gotten a feel for it, but I'm going to go out here and say you instantly know how to use it from the get-go.

(Public) schools provide an outlet for disadvantaged (poor or otherwise neglected children) children to learn how to use computers, which they may not have access to at home. And, as you've said in your post, is a dependency for our civilization. Such children wouldn't be able to learn how to use computers at an early age without school.

Quote from characterslimits

Your native language - you would have learned it on your own, anyway. Most of what you learn in school has to do with the analysis of sentences, etc. Things that are not essential for daily life. Reading, writing and speaking would be learned naturally.

I learnt how to understand and speak language from observation and I wasn't directly taught it in school. But that doesn't mean school didn't supplement my speech, it taught me the actual definitions of these words (and not just the approximate definitions I had guessed from observation). However, I don't think it's possible to learn reading or writing from just observing other people write without explanation or someone overseeing your practice. I'm going to be honest, I don't remember much from when I was learning all those essential skills but I'm adamant I certainly learnt them in school.

Quote from characterslimits

Either way, you could give the kid a video game (or, heck, send him to a chatroom that uses English) for a month and he'd learn more than in a year of school.

And then he'd be off learning explicit language parents obviously don't want their child learning. And most of the time the English used in chatrooms isn't going to be actual English, it's just going to be the condensed shit you find on the internet. Good luck finding a chatroom user who writes with words more than 4-letters long.

Quote from characterslimits

Other foreign languages - let's be honest, they won't be used and will be forgotten. Just a way to fill up the school schedule.

I mean sure, you'll probably be fine because everyone speaks English nowadays native or not but foreign languages aren't just "forgotten". Becoming fluent in a language is a surefire way of mostly eliminating the language barrier if, for example, you make frequent business trips to a foreign country. I know that's a very remote example but my main point still stands; foreign languages aren't useless. Have you ever met someone online who doesn't speak English natively and want to communicate with them in their mother tongue? I know I certainly have.

Quote from characterslimits

Physical education - kids would do their own activity if you just left them the alone. And it would be more fun for them, too, since it could include things like climbing trees.

Personally, I never liked the sports classes. But, for lazy kids like me who probably wouldn't exercise outside of these classes, are a necessary evil for good health. Also, I don't think I should have to say this but please don't let children climb trees unsupervised (or even at all for a matter of fact).

Quote from characterslimits

School teaches us by shoving stuff into the human brain. This is now how people actually learn. The human brain is not just a bag that you can put stuff in. It learns by focus and interaction. It is also a biological organ that requires energy which is constantly being depleted. It has a need for rest and play. This means that, if someone is bored, tired or hates the subject, they will not learn very well at that point. So you can't just throw the kitchen sink at someone and expect it to stick. Which is exactly what the schooling system tries to do. Bury students with nonsense until nothing registers, and then bury them further with homework. In this case - even if you find something useful and / or interesting in there - it will get ignored by the already overloaded brain.

Memorization certainly isn't how people learn how to do things, you learn more by actually practicing the thing you memorized how to do. That, in my eyes, is the value of schoolwork and homework. It's practice, so you get better at doing the essential things. I think school is very much a "throw shit at the wall and see what sticks", but that's the whole point. It prepares you for whatever job you want to get into after you've completed your education.

Also, please don't pretend students' brains get at any point "overloaded". You'll naturally forget the shit you don't need, so there's no need to worry about the stuff you don't need.

Quote from characterslimits

If is my fault for not paying attention, then I challenge you to draw the entire world map, including the names of every country, without looking it up on the internet. Go on, you have seen it bunch of times in school, so this should be easy for you.

I never really paid attention in classes, and yet got passing grades in all of the subjects I cared about. I remember always being bored out of my mind at school because I could never really do the things I wanted to do there. Though all that "the thing I wanted to do" consisted of was messing around on the computer.

Even if I did pay attention in classes, I don't have a caliber of memory that could even be considered good enough to remember every country in the world, even if I wanted to. Maybe the reason for that is because it's filled with useless crap about TV, movie and book plots or the nuances of Java... I honestly couldn't tell you why, but for as long as I've remembered I have barely been able to remember what I was going to do next half of the time. I've always been unfortunately crappy at art and honestly haven't felt it worth enough to put the amount of commitment necessary to be even a decent one.

So no, I can't "draw the entire world" as you've asked of me here. Also, fuck geography. Worst subject.

Quote from characterslimits

I came out just fine

😬

Quote from Telephone

I don't see anyone blaming their stupidity on the education system here, what I see is someone analysing what they're actually being taught (read on the post where he expands on his statement). A bunch of what I learned at school has been absolutely useless for me afterward, even in the world of work. I think a modified version of the UK education system would be good though.

It certainly wasn't his intention... what I see in his post is someone unfairly criticizing the education system with some very minor criticisms (in my opinion) and calling for its unjust eradication.

Don't get me wrong, I've never, ever liked or even enjoyed school, but it certainly is necessary. Perhaps it wasn't necessary hundreds of years ago but it sure as hell is today. Schools are just a more efficient variety of mass-education.

Going to withdraw from this thread as I've said everything I want to and as such I don't feel much need to continue making rebuttals.

tl;dr school, in my opinion, is necessary to educate the masses and especially working class children.

Quote from characterslimits

Nothing to all of the questions. I skipped of all of those social norms and I came out just fine

Quote from characterslimits

Seriously though, the education system is a failure.

I disagree. The educational system, when applied properly, has been a major success and is the reason we have advanced as far as we have in recent decades. It isn't perfect, but it is very likely the reason we managed to get so far to the point where we can put a man on the moon and communicate with people across the world instantly.

Quote from characterslimits

All they do is teach you about useless stuff that you aren't even going to use, and because you aren't even going to use the stuff you "learned" you just end up forgetting about it.

I'd argue that they teach you this stuff to prepare you for when you do end up getting into a career that requires you to use what you were taught. Better to have a catch-all instead of a catch-none.

Quote from characterslimits

Schools should just be removed entirely. Why? Because for almost the entirety of human history there were no such thing as school, and yet despite that we still survived.

I disagree. We survived, sure, but did we thrive? Not until education got good and became more readily accessible.

Quote from characterslimits

All they do is teach you about useless stuff that you aren't even going to use

you're speaking English right now. they teach you English at school.

you're using a computer right now. they teach that at school too.

Quote from characterslimits

because you aren't even going to use the stuff you "learned" you just end up forgetting about it

that's not necessarily true, depending on who you ask. some people do remember what they learn at school.
not all, but some.

Quote from characterslimits

Because for almost the entirety of human history there were no such thing as school, and yet despite that we still survived

but the majority of us didn't really learn anything. no learning = no advance in technology = no Internet = no stupid arguments

Quote from characterslimits

Because for almost the entirety of human history there were no such thing as school

Although I can sympathise with your reasoning here, it is fundamentally flawed on two accounts.

1. Schools have been a dominant part of human history, and can be dated back to ancient civilisations in Asia and Greece. The earliest recorded schooling system was in 2000 BC.

You are correct in claiming that for a lot of human history there were no schools - the first humans existed around 2.5 million years ago. However, their priorities contrast quite considerably with out own priorities. Pre-historic humans fought for food, space and mates; modern humans compete for jobs, money, space and mates.

2. The shift in priorities also entails a shift in the means to acquire these priorities. Pre-historic humans used strength, size and speed to compete for their needs, whilst modern day humans use intelligence, skills and charisma to compete for theirs.

Your line of reasoning here is very surface level, if you dive deeper into the reasons for the creation of schooling systems you’ll find that individuals much smarter than both of us combined supported it (for good reason).

Quote from characterslimits

However, very recently at some point, it was decided that people must go to school. There is no basis for doing so, it was just arbitrary decided.

Source?

I am 99% sure that you have pulled this out of your ass.

Quote from characterslimits

but now a 10 minute YouTube video teaches you more than a year of school.

This is a point that I see some merit in. The education system is outdated, and I have personally used YouTube and other online resources to achieve a great deal in terms of my eduction.

Despite that, the ability to ask your teachers questions and receive an accurate answer (ideally) is a hallmark of the concept of education, and it is not something that can be replaced by a YouTube video or any alternative.

Quote from characterslimits

English language (if you live in a non-English speaking country) - this could be the one thing to justify school, since it is actually useful.

Are you claiming that English is the only important language? If so, why?

Quote from characterslimits

Other foreign languages - let's be honest, they won't be used and will be forgotten

Again, do you really think that English is the only important language? You sound incredibly entitled in this section of your post, because you give the impression that you do not care for other languages or understanding the value in being able to communicate with others effectively.

If you only know English, not only are your job prospects reduced significantly, you are also limiting yourself to only interacting with about 16% of the population. Consider how many people you will have absolutely no chance of speaking to because of a language barrier - because you do not consider alternate languages to be important.

Quote from characterslimits

Biology, geography, history - these could be interesting subjects if someone likes them. But they are not essential for daily life, and therefore should not be required.

Physical education - kids would do their own activity if you just left them the alone. And it would be more fun for them, too, since it could include things like climbing trees.

Mathematics - most of it can be done by computers. And again, most of the more advanced maths will be forgotten since it is not that useful in daily life. The basics could be taught by parents.

Chemistry, physics - useless, hard to understand, and will be forgotten. Again, if an adult likes them or needs them for their jobs (this will be very rare), they can learn them at that point. But there is no need to shove them onto kids.

Learning about STEM is imperative to the human race continuing to evolve. It drives change and creates the conditions for individuals to pioneer new inventions that could revolutionise the way we live. Fionn has made a similar point, which I agree with.

Quote from characterslimits

Just think, the people that discovered electricity wasn't taught about electricity in school.

“weren’t”

The people that discovered electricity did so on a foundation of chemical understanding. Had they not been taught chemistry, they would not have discovered that specific chemical reactions produced electrical outputs.

All inventions come from an understanding of prior knowledge. You seem to think that people come up with new ideas from nothing (ex nihilo), which is a very unusual stance to take because it has been disproven anytime anyone has ever come up with anything.

Quote from characterslimits

If is my fault for not paying attention, then I challenge you to draw the entire world map, including the names of every country, without looking it up on the internet. Go on, you have seen it bunch of times in school, so this should be easy for you.

I don’t understand this analogy. If someone has learnt the world map in school, they would have a better idea of what it looks like than someone who has not studied it in school.

Quote from characterslimits

Which therefore proves that the education system is flawed.

Quote from characterslimits

Nothing to all of the questions. I skipped of all of those social norms and I came out just fine.

Quote from characterslimits

I used to be way, way, way behind on language arts back in elementary school. When I started playing Minecraft multiplayer and used chat. I actually learned a lot. So therefore, school didn't teach me how to write a sentence, but actually, Minecraft did.

can we stop with the use of anecdotes to form actual arguments? especially when the anecdotes are flawed as fuck