Roe v. Wade Officially Overturned by SCOTUS

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↩ @'Ryan' Why should it matter why you chose to get an abortion..?

because saying “abortions prevent economic hardship” doesnt address the main driving force of why people get abortions.

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↩ @'Ryan' By all means you can be pro-life, but you should also be pro-choice imho. If you want to be anti-choice then before banning abortion and setting the country as a whole back hundreds of years find a better solution to deal with the problem you’ve just created.

you cant ban abortion but still have the choice to have an abortion. if youre talking about adoption, then i agree. and how is it setting the country back hundreds of years by banning abortion? having the right to kill babies is not a sign of progress, its a sign of moral depravity

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↩  RedEastWood Unwanted children ruin lives. Murdering a child who cannot feel anything does not ruin lives, because the life in question has no experiences of the real world and cannot feel pain.

every person can ruin the life of someone else. even a perfect person could drive someone to become incredibly jealous and ruin their life. and just because someone cannot feel pain doesnt mean their life has less value. it would be wrong to kill someone in a coma if you know they will wake up in 9 months. abortion does ruin lives, it ruins the life of the baby, and it can ruin the life of the mother who regrets it, and ruin the life of the father who never had a choice whether or not his child would ever be born

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↩  enchy because saying “abortions prevent economic hardship” doesnt address the main driving force of why people get abortions.

It doesn't, but flat out going "No abortion for you" doesn't solve the root cause either, nor does it do anything to address what will almost always happen next as I outlined...

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↩  enchy you cant ban abortion but still have the choice to have an abortion. if youre talking about adoption, then i agree. and how is it setting the country back hundreds of years by banning abortion? having the right to kill babies is not a sign of progress, its a sign of moral depravity

And that was my point, pro-choice is fine, and having a personal belief on if abortions are good or bad is absolutely fine, by all means tell people what you believe and give them your side of your belief, however for a government to unilaterally remove that freedom of choice is not evolution or good, it's removing liberties and freedoms.

We're going back in time because we're removing rights for no good reason, and you're removing the freedom of choice. Having the right to abort is not moral depravity, forcing a child to grow up without parents or being generally unloved is. This encourages the suffering of mother and child, and the child is who will suffer for the many many years to come after if the parent has to just get rid of the child as soon as it's born, which is all this will do. It puts more pressure on an already crippled adoption framework globally, and forces more children to grow up without loving families, how is that morally right?

abortions are pretty cool idk why they should be banned

↩  Miwojedk What are these consequences you are talking about? I am still heavily debating abortion from a moral point of view and the only reason I am leaning towards supporting abortion is strictly the fact that it is so necessary in todays society (refer to above post). If these consequences you speak of are related to loss of freedom, I disagree with you. We have laws which restrict immoral actions and I personally believe abortion is immoral. It is simply the only option we have at this moment. We should be investing our resources into making abortion less necessary rather than debating whether it should be protected or not.

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↩  Luke it is not in any way unreasonable to assume they would ban interracial marriage..

interracial marriage being banned would clearly violate the constitution. and gay marriage and interracial marriage are not in the same league. whatever precedent overturning roe v wade sets, i cant see interracial marriage being affected. the only people mentioning interracial marriage are people who oppose the supreme court decision, i have not seen anyone support banning interracial marriage.

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↩  Luke i don’t get your point here

my point is that economic hardship isnt a good defense for abortion since economic reasons are huge minority in reasons for getting an abortion. justifying abortions because economic hardship on the mother doesnt explain the huge majority of abortions.

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↩ @'Ryan' It doesn’t, but flat out going “No abortion for you” doesn’t solve the root cause either,

the root cause is saying “my convenience is more important than the lives of others.” this self-centered thinking isnt going to just go away and honestly it cant be fixed. banning abortion is just the best we can do at mitigating its effects.

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↩ @'Ryan' however for a government to unilaterally remove that freedom of choice is not evolution or good, it’s removing liberties and freedoms.

its also protecting lives. the government protects life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, in that order. the life of the fetus trumps the liberty of someone to pursue happiness by killing that fetus. murder is illegal because it is wrong to use liberty to remove life, because life trumps liberty.

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↩ @'Ryan' This encourages the suffering of mother and child, and the child is who will suffer for the many many years to come after

life is always going to involve suffering. trying to make a life without suffering is pointless. and the possibility of suffering is trumped by the value of human life. if we should end life to prevent suffering, then we would go kill all poor people and all people in third world countries.

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↩  enchy the root cause is saying “my convenience is more important than the lives of others.” this self-centered thinking isnt going to just go away and honestly it cant be fixed. banning abortion is just the best we can do at mitigating its effects.

I think that's an exceptionally narrow minded view to take on the topic, and I'm disappointed you went straight to "Meh humans bad" rather than use your brain. Let me give you some of the other root causes

• Cost of living is expensive
• Raising a child is very expensive
• Contraception is expensive
• Contraception fails
• Humans are horrible and rape is a thing
• People change their mind

Banning abortion is not the best we could do, and we should frankly be ashamed as a species we think it's a good idea in the first place.

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↩  enchy its also protecting lives.

It isn't. That's been proven time and time again.

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↩  enchy the government protects life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness,

And this ruling is doing none of those... It's destroying peoples lives, removing liberties and going to cause more people to struggle and not be happy.

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↩  enchy life is always going to involve suffering. trying to make a life without suffering is pointless. and the possibility of suffering is trumped by the value of human life. if we should end life to prevent suffering, then we would go kill all poor people and all people in third world countries.

I don't disagree suffering is inevitable, but to go out of your way to make more suffering is inhumane and immoral. Your argument here assumes there is actual life, and I would suggest that at the point we're talking for the majority of abortions, there is no actual life. It's a crap argument and I'm disappointed your not even trying to be understanding of the problem here.

↩  darwin This is your second post on this thread and neither have added anything to this discussion. People here genuinely care about this topic and your remarks are very unnecessary. Either join the conversation or leave, but don't be annoying.

↩  Tizz sir if you live by the sword you die by the sword

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↩  enchy the government protects life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness

Correction: the government supposedly protects life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I'm not sure just how much they actually do it.

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↩  burger join the conversation

alright, then

So... Samuel Alito says that Roe was "egregiously wrong from the start" ? That's the dumbest thing I've heard this year (actually the second dumbest, next to quack being a retard for the 69th time in a row but…)

Roe and Casey made sure that women could choose to get an abortion if they wanted one. What's wrong with that?

↩  darwin you might possibly be the most retarded person i have ever seen

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↩ @'Ryan' Cost of living is expensive
Raising a child is very expensive
Contraception is expensive

only 20% of abortions are for economic reasons

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↩ @'Ryan' Contraception fails
Humans are horrible and rape is a thing

dont want a baby, dont do the one thing designed to make babies. and only 0.5% of abortions are because of rape so rape isnt really statistically meaningful when talking about abortion.

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↩ @'Ryan' we should frankly be ashamed as a species we think it’s a good idea in the first place.

we should be ashamed as a species that we kill our own fucking babies. we have murdered i think 50 million babies since roe v wade. in 200 years humanity will call all of us psychopaths that we murdered millions of our own children, just like how we look back at slave owners and dictators.

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↩  darwin Roe and Casey made sure that women could choose to get an abortion if they wanted one. What’s wrong with that?

whats wrong is that roe has no constitutional basi

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↩ @'Ryan' And this ruling is doing none of those… It’s destroying peoples lives, removing liberties and going to cause more people to struggle and not be happy.

its not removing lives, it is protecting them. it is removing liberties in order to protect life. and it is preventing the pursuit of happiness to harm the lives of others.

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↩ @'Ryan' I don’t disagree suffering is inevitable, but to go out of your way to make more suffering is inhumane and immoral. Your argument here assumes there is actual life, and I would suggest that at the point we’re talking for the majority of abortions, there is no actual life

to prevent suffering, we should kill all poor people. by letting poor people live, we are creating suffering for them. suffering doesnt matter when talking about abortion because life is so much more important than suffering. whatever troubles the baby or mother may face, the value of their lives is more important than their suffering. if not, then we should all just kill ourselves because it will prevent suffering. for “actual life,” the only consistent way to define life is beginning at conception. any other definition doesnt work.

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↩  enchy only 20% of abortions are for economic reasons

20% is a pretty fucking large percentage... Also citation needed.

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↩  enchy dont want a baby, dont do the one thing designed to make babies.

So you're removing more freedoms?

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↩  enchy and only 0.5% of abortions are because of rape so rape isnt really statistically meaningful when talking about abortion.

Ahh yes, let's just ignore the argument because it's annoying. It's fine because you haven't been raped so it's no big deal right? What a fucking awful approach on life.

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↩  enchy we should be ashamed as a species that we kill our own fucking babies.

No, we are talking about a non-developed foetus. That is not a baby.

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↩  enchy in 200 years humanity will call all of us psychopaths that we murdered millions of our own children, just like how we look back at slave owners and dictators.

But we're not, we're not talking about "Children" or "babies" we're talking about non-developed and pre-brain clumps of cells. If that said set of cells were bought out of the womb at the time we're talking about termination rather than being left to develop they would pass any sort of test to suggest that it is alive / sentient on it's own (See the Turing test for one of many examples of such tests).

What you've actually done is FORCED someone against their will to carry and provide for what will become a child they will simply get rid of as soon as they possibly can. It's disgusting and we should honestly be ashamed of ourselves as a race for feeling it's acceptable to remove the rights of people. A foetus has not developed to the point it is a living sentient being, and is having no rights taken away by being terminated at an early stage of pregnancy.

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↩  enchy its not removing lives

I never said it was

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↩  enchy it is protecting them.

No, it's the FORCED creation of life, in most civilised countries we call that rape and non-consent.

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↩  enchy it is removing liberties in order to protect life.

As I've argued, it is not.

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↩  enchy and it is preventing the pursuit of happiness to harm the lives of others.

That didn't even make any sense

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↩  enchy to prevent suffering, we should kill all poor people. by letting poor people live, we are creating suffering for them.

If that's the hill you want to die on, then by all means. But it's not an argument I've made, and you're strawmanning here. Grow up.

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↩  enchy suffering doesnt matter when talking about abortion because life is so much more important than suffering.

No life, which is the point.

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↩  enchy whatever troubles the baby or mother may face, the value of their lives is more important than their suffering.

Not when you're forcing that suffering onto both, fate is one thing, intentionally sabotaging someones (and their Childs) chance at success is just being cruel. It's not civilised and it's sure as fuck not right.

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↩  enchy f not, then we should all just kill ourselves because it will prevent suffering.

Fucking. Straw. Man.

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↩  enchy for “actual life,” the only consistent way to define life is beginning at conception. any other definition doesnt work.

I think most laws globally, most civilised countries and common sense disagrees.

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↩  enchy just like how we look back at slave owners and dictators.

Are you suggesting that a pregnant woman getting an abortion is equivalent to a slave owner killing a slave, or a dictator killing a protestor? You make semi-decent points at times, but you always provide these insane comparisons.

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↩  enchy to prevent suffering, we should kill all poor people. by letting poor people live, we are creating suffering for them. suffering doesnt matter when talking about abortion because life is so much more important than suffering. whatever troubles the baby or mother may face, the value of their lives is more important than their suffering. if not, then we should all just kill ourselves because it will prevent suffering. for “actual life,” the only consistent way to define life is beginning at conception. any other definition doesnt work.

You aren’t arguing against a point here, you’re diverting attention from the point. The comparison to poor people is illogical, their suffering is not the result of force but rather the result of unfortunate circumstance. Poor people did not have a choice on whether they were born, however until recently their parents did. I am certain that because of abortion’s legality, there are fewer poor people who suffer every day. By giving women a choice with abortion, we can end suffering before it begins. STOP STRAW-MANNING US WITH THIS ARGUMENT, in your example of poor people the suffering has occurred AFTER BIRTH (WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT TO PRE-BIRTH). I hate using caps to make points, but it actually hurts that I had to explain that.

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↩  enchy we have murdered i think 50 million babies since roe v wade, in 200 years humanity will call all of us psychopaths that we murdered millions of our own children

This sentence is the most brilliant example of embedded propaganda I have seen in a while. By calling them “babies” or “children” you are trying to elicit an emotional response here - although they are NOT BABIES, NOR CHILDREN. They are FOETUSES.

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↩  enchy only 20% of abortions are for economic reasons

Citation.

I’m going to go ahead and provide some of my own sources

https://www.guttmacher.org/journals/psrh/…ve-perspectives

Sample Size - 1209 Abortionists

74% Claimed that having a baby would interfere with their jobs, education, or ability to care for another dependant

73% Claimed that they could not afford a baby at the current time

48% Claimed that they did not want to be/bring the baby up with, a single mother.

This source is limited by its creation date, which was in 2005. With the rise of teen pregnancies and a growing relaxation of care regarding sexual intercourse, this source may not be accurate in the current day.

https://bmcwomenshealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1472-6874-13-29

Sample Size - 954 Abortionists

40% (Predominant Reason) - Economic Factors/Financial Reasons

36% - Timing

31% - Partner related issues (Single mother etc.)

64% of women claimed that the reasons for getting an abortion crossed over multiple themes, and there is not just one reason.

This source is from 2013, its recent publishing gives it greater credibility over the previous source. Both sources mention economic factors to be a notable reason for getting an abortion. Also, way over 20%.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2135792

75% of women claimed that a baby would interfere with school, work or other responsibilities

66.6% of women claimed that they could not afford a baby (economic factors)

This source is from 1987! It just shows you how little has changed, and that ECONOMIC FACTORS ARE ONE OF THE MORE DOMINANT REASONS FOR GETTING AN ABORTION. Although this source certainly isn’t relevant to current day, I included it to show a trend.

These sources illustrate the role economic factors play in getting an abortion. Enchy claims that it is “20%”. I call bullshit. Every source I have seen mentions economic factors as dominant, or in the upper two reasons.

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↩  enchy we should be ashamed as a species that we kill our own fucking babies. we have murdered i think 50 million babies since roe v wade. in 200 years humanity will call all of us psychopaths that we murdered millions of our own children, just like how we look back at slave owners and dictators.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

man said we’re just like slave owners and dictators

til letting a cluster of cells die is just as bad as the slave trade

one of the supreme court members is currently advocating for the overturn of contraception use (condoms, plan b, etc.), they are not pro life, they just want to control women

if we're doing this for the children, then why don't we instead improve child care and do more to support the women that are actually having kids? why put more emphasis on the people that don't even want one?

↩ @'Ryan' 20% is a pretty fucking large percentage… Also citation needed.

https://abort73.com/abortion_facts/us_abortion_statistics/

and its large but not the main driving force of why people get abortions. so saying people get abortions to prevent economic hardship is wrong since that only applies to 1/5 of abortions.

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↩ @'Ryan' So you’re removing more freedoms?

its not a removal of freedom to face the consequences of your own free choice.

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↩ @'Ryan' But we’re not, we’re not talking about “Children” or “babies” we’re talking about non-developed and pre-brain clumps of cells.

when does the fetus become alive/human?

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↩ @'Ryan' I never said it was

you said it was destroying lives, i stressed that its not removing lives because you didnt seem to directly mention life

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↩ @'Ryan' No, it’s the FORCED creation of life, in most civilised countries we call that rape and non-consent.

nope. if a person had consensual sex its not rape to make them have the baby that was born from their own free decision. the creation of life was not forced, it was from free choice.

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↩ @'Ryan' That didn’t even make any sense

preventing people from pursuing happiness by harming the lives of others. sorry for the weird phrasing.

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↩ @'Ryan' But it’s not an argument I’ve made, and you’re strawmanning here. Grow up.

i see youve decided to pull my card? im not saying you said that, im just extending your logic to people who have already been born

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↩ @'Ryan' Not when you’re forcing that suffering onto both, fate is one thing, intentionally sabotaging someones (and their Childs) chance at success is just being cruel.

its not forcing suffering. for one you cant know whether or not certain sufferings will occur in their lives. also the suffering would never happen if the mother didnt choose to have sex. its not forced, its a free choice.

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↩ @'Ryan' Fucking. Straw. Man.

not really. im just taking the worst possible outcome of your logic that preventing suffering is more important than human life.

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↩ @'Ryan' I think most laws globally, most civilised countries and common sense disagrees.

most laws globally in the 1800s would support slavery, racial discrimination, and other terrible things. common sense wouldnt disagree because it seems like common sense that once a genetically independent human is created, it is alive since it can grow and it is independent because it has its own unique dna.

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↩  Luke man said we’re just like slave owners and dictators

we have killed about as many people that died in ww2. so yes, we are. laugh all you want but what is deemed acceptable is constantly changing. we are in a small window of abortion being accepted. it wont last forever