Roe v. Wade Officially Overturned by SCOTUS

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↩  enchy rape apologist culture does not fucking exist. there are maybe 3 people who think rape is fine

you clearly haven't been around long if that's what you think.

there are absolutely more than three (read: there's a damn well lot of them) who definitely believe this.

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↩  enchy women are more likely to win child custody. women can make a false allegation against a man and ruin his life or reputation (amber heard vs johnny depp, brett kavanaugh). people literally say to believe all women no matter what.

also, uhhh, these don't sound like rights, exactly. try again.

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↩  enchy there is no systematic oppression of women.

While not a topic for this thread, there really is....

Your entire argument around that paragraph could easily be a thread of its own because it's not accurate... Certainky not globally.

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↩  enchy being killed is worse than having trauma

you have no idea what the fuck trauma is, am I right?

↩  darwin i know its not being killed

would you rather have your family be traumatized from a terrorist attack or be killed brutally in said attack?

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↩  enchy would you rather have your family be traumatized from a terrorist attack or be killed brutally in said attack?

would you rather have a loved one kill themselves or live knowing they did an abortion?

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↩  enchy would you rather have your family be traumatized from a terrorist attack or be killed brutally in said attack?

Those two are in no way shape or form comparable to the examples / hypotheticals already provided...

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↩  enchy rape apologist culture does not fucking exist. there are maybe 3 people who think rape is fine,

This is thé perfect example of a strawman

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↩  enchy the gender pay gap has been debunked hundreds of times since the 1980s

The gender paygap certainly exists. To say it's been "debunked" is misleading.

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↩  enchy women can make a false allegation against a man and ruin his life or reputation (amber heard vs johnny depp, brett kavanaugh).

Except I would argue that the allegations against Kavanaugh certainly had merit. And Heard V. Depp showed that - seemingly - false allegations against a man are, to put it lightly: frowned upon. I believe I even argued with you on this matter in another thread.

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↩  enchy men commit suicide 4 times as much as women do.

Women are roughly three times more likely to attempt suicide, though men are two to four times more likely to die by suicide. Compared to men, women show higher rates of suicidal thinking, non-fatal suicidal behavior, and suicide attempts.

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↩  enchy men make up 90% of workplace fatalities

Nobody is forcing men to take these jobs. Some believe that good pay is worth more risk, or men are just dumb fucks at times.

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↩  enchy women have the exact same rights men do. if anything, women have more rights than men. women dont have to enter the draft. women are more likely to win child custody.

I've never personally felt the urge to use my car keys as a make-shift weapon, when I'm walking down the street at night, and some guy is walking behind me.

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↩  enchy you mean ignoring the actual facts of our society and instead using a couple anecdotes to construe all of society.

You've literally just done the same in this exact post:

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↩  enchy but here is a story from an actual woman i know: she was 20 and got pregnant on accident. she didnt know what to do, so she went and got an abortion. it is one of her biggest regrets, getting that abortion. there are many stories of actual women like this.

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↩  Miwojedk This is thé perfect example of a strawm

i wouldnt say so, ive literally never seen anyone saying rape is fine unironically

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↩  Miwojedk The gender paygap certainly exists. To say it’s been “debunked” is misleading.

let me rephrase. the gender pay gap being caused by discrimination has been debunked

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↩  Miwojedk Except I would argue that the allegations against Kavanaugh certainly had merit. And Heard V. Depp showed that - seemingly - false allegations against a man are, to put it lightly: frowned upon. I believe I even argued with you on this matter in another thread.

the allegations had no merit. there was no evidence, her own friend had contradictory testimony, and she only reported it 40 years later right before he was about to become a supreme court justice. convenient timing. as for amber heard, i have not heard (pun intended) officially from warner bros if she is getting dropped from aquaman 2. however, they sure were quick to drop depp from fantastic beasts. seems to me that being accused is more frowned upon than falsely accusing someone

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↩  Miwojedk Women are roughly three times more likely to attempt suicide, though men are two to four times more likely to die by suicide. Compared to men, women show higher rates of suicidal thinking, non-fatal suicidal behavior, and suicide attempts.

according to https://chapterland.org/wp-content/upl…gures_Flyer.pdf its only 1.4x. however, i dont know how its counted. i have two ideas on how it could be counted, and how men die 4x as much if they attempt suicide less. first: say 100 men and 140 (1.4x) women attempt suicide. men might just be much more likely to succeed, so 80 men succeed and 20 women succeed (4x death rate). second explanation: 100 men attempt suicide and 80 succeed. 48 women attempt suicide, and 20 succeed (20 male vs 28 female survivors). in this model, the male suicide death rate is 4x, but the amount of attempted suicides is 1.4 times larger for women. the second model makes more sense to me, because the first model has such a huge difference between attempts leaning to female and deaths leaning for men. im not sure about this tho, just speculation. as for suicidal thinking, i dont think thats a good metric. ive had serious suicidal thoughts, but i never actually planned on attempting it. id bet lots of people also have had suicidal thoughts. i think the best metric is the people who are actually willing to fully carry out a suicide, not attempts or ideation.

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↩  Miwojedk Nobody is forcing men to take these jobs. Some believe that good pay is worth more risk, or men are just dumb fucks at times.

the point is that its not fair to say men are favored in the workplace when they make up basically all workplace deaths. anecdote so take it with a grain of salt but even in my own personal experience working in a place with almost all women, my manager would choose me to take out the trash, do any work outside, or any sort of heavy lifting.

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↩  Miwojedk I’ve never personally felt the urge to use my car keys as a make-shift weapon, when I’m walking down the street at night, and some guy is walking behind me.

ive sometimes felt the need to carry a knife for self defense. i find myself being extra aware and looking around at night, looking for places i could get attacked from or escape to. ill be cautious walking near people at night. all of this is especially amplified if im around women. its considered polite for me to walk next to the road if im with a woman because if a car runs off the road as a man i should be the one to get hit.

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↩  Miwojedk You’ve literally just done the same in this exact post:

i know, my point is that throwing anecdotes back and forth does nothing because theres an endless supply of “i know someone who…”

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↩  Luke would you rather have a loved one kill themselves or live knowing they did an abortion?

live, i wouldnt wish suicide on anyone. suicide prevents any chance of growing or working through regret

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↩ @'Ryan' Those two are in no way shape or form comparable to the examples / hypotheticals already provided…

why not? im asking if it would be preferable to have your loved ones experience trauma or ptsd, or have them die. its a question to see whether theyd rather have someone die or live with trauma, im just removing the abortion part of the question.

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↩ @'Ryan' Your entire argument around that paragraph could easily be a thread of its own because it’s not accurate… Certainky not globally.

in america* typed it in kind of a rush, sorry i missed that

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↩  Luke is this paragraph saying because of the way courts and shit work and suicide rates that MEN are oppressed?

no, im saying its false to say that women are being oppressed by men when a lot of mens lives are total shit. if men are oppressing women, they why are they committing suicide 4x as much? why do they lose custody battles more than women? why do international mens day events literally get shut down because of protesting? why do events speaking about PREVENTING FUCKING MALE SUICIDE get PROTESTED?

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↩  Luke neither is wrong. qualitative methods can be used the same way quantitative methods can. there is no single way to look at society.

lets say 1000 people have identical houses in a neighborhood (its a fatass neighborhood). now, one person named billy has his house collapse on him. does that mean the houses are bad? maybe, maybe not. doesnt seem like it, since it only happened to 1 out of 1000 houses. instead, it would be better to look at other causes for why the house collapsed. if you step back and look at the neighborhood at large, theres a 0.1% chance of the house failing. not a huge chance (ik it is in real life but just roll with the example). however, if you zoom in on ol billy, youd think “wow these houses suck, they collapsed on billy.” that doesnt capture a completely description of the neighborhood.

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↩  root there are absolutely more than three (read: there’s a damn well lot of them) who definitely believe this.

youve failed to provide any examples, so for now im staying with 3

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↩  root also, uhhh, these don’t sound like rights, exactly. try again.

social advantages then, not rights. although legally, in some states women are automatically granted custody unless she can be proved incapable of parenting, and women are also not requires to enter the draft.

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↩  RedEastWood Why is, objectively, being “killed” worse than having trauma?

actually, now that i think about it, that probably isnt objective. id say because the most valuable thing humans possess is life, which means losing life is worse than losing something else. however, life being the most valuable thing humans have probably isnt objective so i rescind that

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↩  enchy lets say 1000 people have identical houses in a neighborhood (its a fatass neighborhood). now, one person named billy has his house collapse on him. does that mean the houses are bad? maybe, maybe not. doesnt seem like it, since it only happened to 1 out of 1000 houses. instead, it would be better to look at other causes for why the house collapsed. if you step back and look at the neighborhood at large, theres a 0.1% chance of the house failing. not a huge chance (ik it is in real life but just roll with the example). however, if you zoom in on ol billy, youd think “wow these houses suck, they collapsed on billy.” that doesnt capture a completely description of the neighborhood.

what?

↩  Luke the point is that the overall pattern of the neighborhood (metaphor for society) is that the houses work in almost all cases. however, by using anecdotal evidence (like billy’s house) to describe the entire neighborhood, you create a description contrary to the actual neighborhood: that the houses suck.

in a more real example: lets say there a 3 people i know. they have an american flag on their houses, and as some random people walk by, they throw eggs at their houses and the flag. now, i could look at anecdotal evidence and say “wow our country hates the american flag, what happened to patriotism?” or i could step back and look at the larger picture: “this only happened 3 times, theres bound to be a few idiots in a huge country.”

the point of these examples is that by using anecdotal evidence you dont capture an honest picture of society, the only way to do that is by looking at larger trends and patterns. focusing on the outliers and anecdotes only creates a skewed view of reality

↩  enchy every method has its strength or weakness. the point i’m making here (after studying sociology for 2 years) is that using both statistics and anecdotal methods are sufficient at observing why some things happen. One method is stronger in one area, and the other is stronger in another.

can you name these 3 people you speak of btw

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↩  enchy youve failed to provide any examples, so for now im staying with 3

you also failed to provide any examples whatsoever.

when im off work ill find said examples im talking about.

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↩  enchy lets say 1000 people have identical houses in a neighborhood (its a fatass neighborhood). now, one person named billy has his house collapse on him. does that mean the houses are bad? maybe, maybe not. doesnt seem like it, since it only happened to 1 out of 1000 houses. instead, it would be better to look at other causes for why the house collapsed. if you step back and look at the neighborhood at large, theres a 0.1% chance of the house failing. not a huge chance (ik it is in real life but just roll with the example). however, if you zoom in on ol billy, youd think “wow these houses suck, they collapsed on billy.” that doesnt capture a completely description of the neighborhood.

I mean.. the problem I see with that analogy is that if there were 1000 identical houses and one of them randomly failed structurally, there's a good chance that the rest of the houses would be evacuated to work out the cause of the fault before more people are hurt or property is damaged. A similar stance, albeit in a more extreme case, is that often thousands of aircraft are grounded if there's reasonable cause that a mechanical fault caused just one crash in that model.

Maybe I'm taking it too literally or something...but if the houses are identical and one collapsed, they're not just going to move on with it.

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↩  Luke can you name these 3 people you speak of btw

theyre not real, its a hypothetical situation

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↩  root you also failed to provide any examples whatsoever.

examples for what?

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↩  erin I mean.. the problem I see with that analogy is that if there were 1000 identical houses and one of them randomly failed structurally, there’s a good chance that the rest of the houses would be evacuated to work out the cause of the fault before more people are hurt or property is damaged. A similar stance, albeit in a more extreme case, is that often thousands of aircraft are grounded if there’s reasonable cause that a mechanical fault caused just one crash in that model.

youre 100% right, i think i said i know that 1 out of 1000 is huge for houses but just to roll with the analogy. i was kinda rushing and couldnt think of a better analogy

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↩  enchy examples for what?

of the three people you were talking about, except for the fact that you said in the reply above that they're hypothetical and not real.

again, when i get off work i will provide actual example, which you ain't doing since they ain't real lol

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↩  root of the three people you were talking about, except for the fact that you said in the reply above that they’re hypothetical and not real.

again, when i get off work i will provide actual example, which you ain’t doing since they ain’t real lol

couldve made it more clear that it was a hypothetical situation, my bad

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↩  alophia Christian with a uterus here.

i can already tell where this is going

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↩  alophia I’ll cover your quote of Jeremiah 1:5 first. The chapter covers God talking to a 13 year old Jeremiah who was appointed as a prophet and was feeling unsure about his abilities. God tells Jeremiah that he pre-determined his abilities and purpose before this point. The writer uses birth to describe how God transcends time, and is therefore able to know what happens before Jeremiah was born. This verse is about Jeremiah understanding that his purpose is greater than himself, and he shouldn’t let temporal things like age or hard skills to deter him from pursuing that.

while yes, it does show God’s plan for Jeremiah and His knowledge outside of time, the main point is that God made Jeremiah for a purpose, and He is calling out to Jeremiah to tell him that he has been set apart. God says that He formed Jeremiah in the womb and that He consecrated Jeremiah before birth in every translation i found. now imagine what would have happened if Jeremiah’s mother had an abortion. i’d think God would be angry that the one He set apart to be a prophet got killed before he could even be born. how many other children could have gone on to be “prophets” in their lives but were killed before birth?

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↩  alophia There isn’t any message that is explicit to birth, abortion, or even the determination of life. Here’s a link to BibleHub, which is a website that collects multiple versions of the same verse and compares them to each other and with the original language as well. There’s a helpful breakdown of the Hebrew if you scroll down a bit.

it does say that God is active before birth (before something has occurred from your biblehub hebrew thing). it says “I set you apart,” and the tense of the verb “hifil,” or to be set apart, is perfect. perfect tense means an action is completed or finished, or perfected. God had done a completed act of setting apart Jeremiah before birth. to have an abortion would have been to deny God’s completed action of setting Jeremiah apart. while it does not specifically mention abortion, it’s implied that God is active in our lives before we are even born, and that shows God loves and has a plan for us. i think that is enough of a reason to say that abortion is wrong since God loves babies before they are even born.

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↩  alophia Sorry to break it to you, but using Jeremiah 1:5 to justify the parameters of life without adding the appropriate context would be misquoting the Bible.

ironic given your next point

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↩  alophia A friend stated that its important to fight with the pro-choice movement regardless her moral stance on abortion because of how Jesus loved the marginalized. The assuming the majority of people receiving abortions are women and out LGBT people who don’t present as female, we can automatically assume they are marginalized at some level (yknow, because of how much of a hellhole the US is).

Without bringing up any specific passages, though I could if needed, Jesus loved and fought for those who society hated. This included prostitutes, taxpayers, lepers, you name it. He sought them out first because society put them last. He preached to them and loved them first. Why should we not fight with those who are already living?

this makes absolutely no sense.

1. saying we should support whatever the marginalized do despite our own moral beliefs makes no sense. you can support the marginalized without supporting their actions/beliefs. affirming their right to love and care does not necessitate that you support every action they take
2. saying women are marginalized is flat out wrong given they make up 51% of the population, have higher voter turnout, and have suicide rates 4 times lower than men.
3. youre right, Jesus did seek out prostitutes and tax collectors and preached to them, but he did not encourage their sin. where in the Bible does Jesus tell someone to continue taking unfair taxes, or to continue being a prostitute. Jesus shows his love to them but does not ever encourage their sin, and we should do likewise. protecting women in harmful situations has nothing to do with supporting abortion

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↩  alophia Along with those systems, a solution to abortions would be promoting better sex ed and family planning, which the majority of Christians strongly oppose. So, I would love to hear, how are Christians supporting and loving the marginalized by trying to strip the means of eradicating abortion away from society? Enlighten me.

i personally know christians who run pregnancy services that provide care for parents before and after birth. they encourage not getting an abortion and provide ultrasounds, but they also provide diapers, toys, clothes, and parenting classes.

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↩  alophia Another thing my pastor argued is that abortion has been legal since the 70s, so the reconciliation should have happened by now if it was going to happen. First, since the legalization of abortion, I’ve barely seen any Christian circles try to truly reconcile with the “other side” by understanding them. All I’ve seen are people with signs and vans covered in repulsive images of aborted fetuses, and barely any advocacy for a better healthcare and childcare system.

reconciliation has happened. youre a christian and your christian friends and pastor support abortion. the real question is whether or not reconciliation is a good thing. we can reconcile with the people but not with the idea of abortion. proof: christians who have had abortions, regretted it, and turned to Christ for forgiveness. its not a good thing to reconcile the church to beliefs that are actively against Christian teaching. doing so hurts believers who are taught false beliefs, christians who reject the false teaching and are cast out of their own church for holding to good teaching, and the credibility of the church.

about childcare, the first step to childcare is actually having children. our childcare system hasnt killed 50 million babies.

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↩  alophia In conclusion, Christians have not done their part to reconcile with other communities, and its dumb because that’s literally our job. We’re called to share the good news of Christ, and we can see from Jesus himself that the proper method is to connect with the people genuinely rather than shoving Bible verses taken out of context down their throats.

our job is also to hold fast to what the Bible says, not to try to combine the Bible with the beliefs of the world around us. read judges for an example of what happens when followers of God take in the culture around them. Jesus does show the proper method of reaching people, but youre completely misreading his method.

all in all, youre trying to fit Jesus into your narrative of supporting all people’s beliefs and supporting the marginalized no matter what. the problem is that it doesnt fit. while Jesus shows love towards sinners, he does not show support towards sin. you are conflating supporting sinners with supporting their actions. as christians we have a responsibility to protect those who need it, but also to teach good theology and an honest interpretation of the scripture, not to combine the Bible with popular beliefs of our surroundings

edit: youre an alt, whats your main account

This has turned into religious preaching and I'm not having it.

Locked.