Owner vote off Proposal

Quote

↩  jwmphall Players haven’t benefited from the relationship (you could argue that it’s a detriment to the community), yet these same players can get punished for criticizing the company or displaying company logos.

This is untrue, is it not?

Also, wasn't the hub idea popular with the community when it was first being discussed?

↩  taah

Quote

i dont like the way things are run, but frankly this is getting annoying and old how people keep voting off the owners. its his server not a community server.

It is indeed a community server. The only reason Wild is owner is because he was elected by the community. I think this reasoning died when Mark gave the controls to Windows.

Quote

↩  jwmphall Ryan’s professionalism is admirable, but should be standard. I don't see how this is relevant.

It's relevant because it is certainly not the standard. Ryan's way of running TF is akin to how Mark ran it.

Quote

↩  simplynick For those whom are unaware, Ryan has made it very clear how he plans to run TotalFreedom. If it was ignored, then it’s too late. Atlas owns TotalFreedom, inside and out. You can’t vote off the Owner with a thread from his sub-projects. As a member of the community, you have a right to an opinion to be shared and discussed, however, to use the vote off card because of a majority disagreement will not work as easy as it was with the previous owners.

↩ @'phrman' yall basically said in the ‘tl;dr’ that a big reason ryan isnt suited for owner cuz he doesnt agree with the community. You all voted for him when he made as much clear in his owner manifesto.

I think it's disingenious to not mention the outcry that happened once Wild removed the policy (myself included). Another thing worth keeping in mind is that people weren't made aware of the fact that he would remove said policy.

The "You voted for him"-argument seems to be a focal point of the disagreemnt and confusion: not everyone thinks that he made things very clear. (Perhaps it would be wise to quote the thread in question here?)

Quote

↩ @'r00t' Okay, but even if this gets approved, he literally owns the domain, which means you can’t just vote him off.

Which is an issue. But in no real way could we ever enforce such a policy (before Wild) without Mark's help, so the policy has always been 'redundant' even if the intentions are good.

to be fair I think a lot of the criticism from either side is thin air from an outsiders POV (mine). The major quarrel seems to be the argument that Wild is out of touch with the community, however I don't see very much that supports this notion in this thread.

TL: DR:

Unban Ivan, as his permban was a clear result of hurt feelings and not proper procedure.

No to vote off.

↩  Miwojedk community does not hold any "rights" over the server anymore and there is actual ownership and control, just like how a minecraft server should be run. this is not a democracy (i know u did not state this), but keep in mind this is a sandbox game.

↩  Miwojedk ivan's permban could have had a chance to been appealable had he not attacked ryan personally. i don't know what he planned to gain from attacking the owner of the server as if he owns the place

one of the problems you listed is that ryan doesn't give a fuck what you think, so why should he suddenly give a fuck and bow to your wishes when youre trying to vote him off as owner?

↩  xPkz_ i like ryan so if the server gets less stuff and to much totalfreedom turning more into a business

Quote

↩  taah community does not hold any “rights” over the server anymore and there is actual ownership and control, just like how a minecraft server should be run.

I disagree. I think there's a difference between Mark handing the server over to Windows vs. the community electing it's next owner.

I don't think that Wild should host TF as a democracy, but I think it needs emphasizing that TF is only alive because of it's community - not the gamemode or the server in general. If people have quarrels with how Wild is running the server, because they weren't aware he would do so when they elected him, then I think that's an issue. I can certainly testify that I found it troublesome when Wild 'removed' the ownership policy. As I stated in Wild's manifesto-thread: I don't really care if the server is run like a democracy (lol) or how it's run now - I just want transparency, which I think is what (might) be causing a lot of these arguments.
I don't think it's fair from either side to not listen to the other. Those who want to keep Wild certainly have their valid reasons, and those opposing his ownership also do.

Quote

↩  taah ivan’s permban could have had a chance to been appealable had he not attacked ryan personally. i don’t know what he planned to gain from attacking the owner of the server as if he owns the place

It doesn't matter. If we have a set of rules that need to be breached in order to end up on the permban (/irrevocable permban list), then it seems silly to "allow" the owner to ban them anyway because they felt insulted

Quote

↩  enchy one of the problems you listed is that ryan doesn’t give a fuck what you think, so why should he suddenly give a fuck and bow to your wishes when youre trying to vote him off as owner?

You don't think it's a problem if the ownership of a (community-driven) server is out of touch with the community and nothing could be done?

Quote

↩  Miwojedk It is indeed a community server.

While it's been historically run like that, this vision isn't enforceable anymore since Mark has transferred the legal ownership to Ryan.

Going from memory, according to Ryan's words, Mark contemplated letting TotalFreedom's domain expire rather than passing it to another individual, so it's hard for me to imagine Mark supporting this vote off rather than putting TF out of its misery.

↩  Miwojedk the thing is ryan isnt handed over access, he has total access and ownership of all the resources to run the server including the domain, therefore there is no need for elections or any of that bs. it's his server now and we are members. change happens, u cant prevent it. we're not always going to use the same system because everyone is used to it

• according to multiple ivan has had multiple violations in the past and he continues to pester ryan purposefully to piss him off for a laugh.

↩  Miwojedk "nothing can't be done," we thats because you dont have any involvement in the development of our server. if you want to make changes, make suggestions, if you want to add something to the server, make suggestions. ryan perfectly is open to suggestions with enough valid reasoning behind it from my experience in DMing him.

↩  Miwojedk yes but like you said, nothing could be done, so a “voteoff” is pointless

Making a once-in-a-while forum come back just to put my two cents in.

Whilst a lot of the points might have valid reasons (I can't say I'm up to date with TF things now-a-days though), replacing the owner again is going to be a mammoth task in itself. Two of our three past owners have not left on great terms, whereas the server has been stable under Wild. Personally, I wouldn't want to risk that stability unless Wild truly was some tyrannical dictator.

Can we just lock this thread this Is getting out of hand

I've had a lot of disagreements with Ryan but there comes a point where it becomes borderline bullying… Y'all gotta give him some slack, being the owner of a server that's majority demographic is 10-15-year-olds is tough. Ryan is good enough to pay for this server out of his own pocket with no monetary gain the least he deserves is a community that respects him and doesn't critique him simply for the sake of it at any chance they get.

I believe Ryan is the last owner of TotalFreedom. Even if Ryan were to hand over the server to another owner, if not done right and if done by force the transition would kill TotalFreedom. The community isn't as strong as it was 4 years ago, even 2 years ago and I believe that the numerous owner changes within that period is partly to blame.

Quote

↩  jwmphall I believe theyre referring to certain category 0 offenses, especially 0a. Certain players are banned for loose interpretations of 0a like Flobbier while a discord mod streams breaking bad on discord. 0a is an excuse for you to ban any player you want at almost any time because at some point most players have done something you could describe as illegal if you do enough mental gymnastics.

And it's ironic that I'm defending this considering this was what got me banned. When the server was owned just by one dude, somebody infringing copyright or being underage was minuscule -- nobody cared. But when you have a company involved, you jeopardize the company if anybody on here is actively breaking the law. I'm not going to sit here and lie and tell you I would put my company at risk by letting little 12-year-old ixNoah roam the discord just because people were upset TotalFreedom is not complete anarchy.

Quote

↩  jwmphall I recall you stating “i can frankly ban whoever i want.”

Can he not? This expectation that TF should be a complete democracy stemmed from the fact that Seth had issues with authority and gave into the community constantly. Not exactly his fault, he's a kid and the server was as much pricks then as they are now. Looking back on mark, he was seen as the most stable owner of TF and the most admired, and he ruled by decree. Probably the best owner we've ever had.

Ryan's a good dude, he's human too and some of you gotta stop being so harsh. I know if it was any of you instead of Ryan you wouldn't do any better at all

Quote

↩  taah from what i saw, i’d say no.

fuck u

I'll put it simply, Ryan is willing to actively lose quite a bit of money just to keep this server running and for that I am greatful. Additionally he has decentralized the owner role, creating the game mode owner roles, which I think is a good thing simply in terms of mental health, Seth was almost always harassed when things went wrong even when it wasn't his fault, and I'm happy that Ryan hasn't yet succumbed to that pressure (well he almost did, but we are past that now).

That being said, i do have some complaints with Ryan, but in this case the pros outweigh the cons.

(Sorry if this post sounds like a bunch of rambling it's early in the morning, i will fix later)

Quote

↩  Tizz While it’s been historically run like that, this vision isn’t enforceable anymore since Mark has transferred the legal ownership to Ryan.

Going from memory, according to Ryan’s words, Mark contemplated letting TotalFreedom’s domain expire rather than passing it to another individual, so it’s hard for me to imagine Mark supporting this vote off rather than putting TF out of its misery.

If Mark wants (wanted) TF to die, then why would he give ownership to Windows? And why do you want TF gone if it still has a community that frequents it (e.g. me).

Quote

↩  taah the thing is ryan isnt handed over access, he has total access and ownership of all the resources to run the server including the domain, therefore there is no need for elections or any of that bs. it’s his server now and we are members. change happens, u cant prevent it. we’re not always going to use the same system because everyone is used to it

You didn't read what I said. Wild was elected via community vote, and thus the ownership should be subject to community approval. No we can't prevent it, which is why I (and others in this and before this thread) have complained about this change)

Quote

↩  taah “nothing can’t be done,” we thats because you dont have any involvement in the development of our server. if you want to make changes, make suggestions, if you want to add something to the server, make suggestions. ryan perfectly is open to suggestions with enough valid reasoning behind it from my experience in DMing him.

So my opinion is "invalid" because I don't play that often on the server? I have made plenty of suggestions that are still being processed, so I don't get why you're acting as if I'm complaining just for the sake of complaining?'

↩  MagAgentV3 How is it getting out of hand? Do you just want the thread to be closed because you disagree with the subject matter?

Object but only because this is exactly what you guys voted for when picking Wild

↩  videogamesm12 what about steven

Quote

↩  DragonSlayer2189 I’ll put it simply, Ryan is willing to actively lose quite a bit of money just to keep this server running and for that I am greatful.

i think i remember ivan sending a picture of atlas’ net worth of like -£2000 or something, ryans losing money to keep tf alive and people are trying to kick him