Ownership Policy Discussions

Please Note: The TotalFreedom Forum has now been put into a read-only mode. Total Freedom has now closed down and will not be returning in any way, shape or form. It has been a pleasure to lead this community and I wish you all the best for your futures.

    @Miwojedk#4834 I don't own the discord as fionn set that up. But yes, and as was discussed during the ownership transition there are some serious complexities to splitting that ownership.

    Wild1145

    Network Owner at TotalFreedom

    Managing Director at ATLAS Media Group Ltd.

    Founder & Owner at MastodonApp.UK

    @Miwojedk#4834 So, as Ryan discussed, there are some complexities.

    With the ProBoards forum, Finest will forever own it. Steven, Fionn, and Ryan currently are ones with power on it, so while they "control" it, they do not own it. As for the "forum.totalfreedom.me" website, yes, Ryan has full control.

    With the Discord, Ryan has now obtained ownership of it. Fionn and Steven are the Discord Administrators of it and have full permissions on it.

    With the server, Ryan has full ownership of it as he does with this forum.

    The domain will always be owned by markbyron.

    @Miwojedk#4862 Because being the owner of a community means you own all the assets? Being elected to the position indicates a level of trust, and it's really not feasible to have such bureaucracy on a Minecraft server.

    @James#4888 he's the owner of the server. For the past 8 years it's all been seperated, so to now suddenly use this logic is ridiculous.

    Great. Except for the fact that for the past eight years we haven't been applying this "logic", so I don't get why you suddenly think it's appropriate to do so now? You also seemingly "forgot" to actually rebut my point.

    Wild is the owner of the MineCraft server.

    Darth

    @Miwojedk#4914 That's how it should have been in the first place. The owner gets to do what they would like, because they pay the bills. This isn't a congress, this is a game server. From what I've seen, it is much more effective for Ryan to have control of all assets. Every owner has their own style, and Ryan was clear during the owner election that he would take control in this manner.

    @Darth#4915 You're completely neglecting the fact that Wild was voted in with a mere 20 votes, and the public were not made aware of the contents of this "ownership poll" and what it entailed.

    You literally don't rebut any of my points but instead cry "the owner pays for the - server -"_ (Minecraft server, but doesn't have to pay for the forum).

    Feel free to actually tell me why my point of having a seperation of powers is redundant, when it is made blatantly obvious it was a stupid way to host the server just an owner ago.

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    @Miwojedk#4916 a mere 20 votes

    20 yes votes, 4 no, and even so, the ownership policy (that the community spent ages gunning to add it back because Seth changed/removed it) specifies that only admins may vote.

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    @Miwojedk#4916 and the public were not made aware of the contents of this "ownership poll" and what it entailed.

    Here's a public thread announcing the ownership policy would go into effect
    https://forum.totalfreedom.me/d/74-ownership-policy
    Here is the thread explaining why a poll was done through email - https://forum.totalfreedom.me/d/109-ownership-policy-voting
    Although I will grant you that we should have just added the extension that allowed for polls on Flarum. It doesn't matter how many votes there were because that number doesn't change the fact that he was (according to the policy) legitimately elected to the position. Wild was also the only candidate for the position (fionn submited an application but withdrew it hours later). You can view the application here - https://forum.totalfreedom.me/d/75-ownership-policy-applications

    Separation of powers is not needed because the owner is the owner of the server. There was never a formal separation of power, mark and windows were simply content with Finest managing the forum, and Finest always deferred to their wishes regarding it.

    Seth made the decision to switch forums. We could argue for days about whether or not that was the right decision, but finest never owned the "concept" of a TF forum - he only managed the proboards forum. Mark and Windows were completely within their right to swap forums if they wanted to, Seth was just the one that decided to, but there has never been a policy stating "the owner is required to split power among different people" - in fact, the only thing in writing that the owner cannot do is decide who the next owner will be. If you want to see authority split between different people, then raise a suggestion because that was never a formal system in place.

    @Darth#4922 Regardless, we still have way past 20 Admins in total, and the fact that it was only given out via E-mail even further proves my point. Don't get me wrong: I have never said that I disagree with Wild being owner, nor have I claimed that he didn't win fairly, but to say that the election was even close to good is disingenuine.

    Your argument against seperation of powers is literally:

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    Why don't we continue seperation of platforms?
    Because the owner is the owner of the server.

    There has always been a formal seperation of power, and you're more than welcome to contact Seth, Mark and Windows individually and get a quote if you disagree. Finest95 made the forum, and if Mark wanted it under his command, then of course he would've made it so. But since TF has shifted owners a grand total of four times, it's vividly apparent that a seperation is certainly needed, which I will emphasize again: was clearly showcased in the debacle with the previous owner. There has never been a policy outlining that there must be two (now three incl. Discord) owners of the TF platforms, but it's disingenuine to claim that this is not a precedent that has been ongoing for 8 years+. I shouldn't have to make a suggestion to retain an informal policy that has been in effect for years prior: others should have to make a suggestion to change it.

    You also neglect the fact that Seth FORCED the switch to two other forum platforms without community approval.

    I don't have anything against wild1145 enacting any changes he so pleases unless it's policy pertaining to the ownership of the platforms. Those should - only - be driven by community voting, otherwise you have a literal autocracy. Ownership policy, TF platform policy etc. should be solely left up the community (if that means Admins only or eveyrone can be discussed.)

    @Miwojedk#4925 And my point is, the owner does not NEED community approval to do things. It's fine to request that they hold votes on everything, but the owner is in fact a dictator. Ryan even made that clear (although people are free to argue with him). I disagree with him on various things, and that premise almost resulted in my removal a few days ago, but I still believe the owner has the final say on everything.

    @Darth#4926

    You literally didn't read my post. I explicitly said that I don't disagree with Wild enacting any lesser changes without community approval. The only thing that that should absolutely be community-driven is anything pertaining to the TF platforms or the ownership.

    As has always been the case and henceforth will be: if you want major changes enacted, make a suggestion for it. You don't just get to make a major change in how the server is ran because the previous owner went apeshit.

    @Miwojedk#4928 I'll be more blunt: the owner has supreme authority over all changes, regardless of impact. Wild does in fact pay for the forum (albeit indirectly) as he hosts it on his server through his hosting company. The community gets represented through the (flawed) ownership policy. I'm expecting Ryan to let the community make a lot of decisions, but ultimately he has the final say on everything and I also expect him to override popular opinion once in a while. He was fully open that he would not be governed by the community at every turn, before he was elected to owner.