OP Council

i dont understand why this calls for a suggestion, nobody is going to stop you and youve already set everything up

you've basically suggested a new version of op-watch but for the ESL and i do object for making it an official thing but i dont see why you need to ask to make it yourself

@Ashaz#27 If you won't have any power, then what is the point of making this official? Sounds like you'd just be in the same position as you are now.

this doesnt need to made official, and even if it was it literally wouldnt do anything, if you have suggestions literally suggest them? idk why this is a thing tbh

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@Ashaz#24 The OP Council pushes for a better, improved version of TotalFreedom in favour of OPs. Currently, there are restrictions such as certain WE commands aren't allowed. Certain suggestions that benefit OPs aren't put through because admins don't like the idea of OPs having the power to do those things, as it can be 'annoying' but not harmful to the server.

I (along with many other admins) call people out for objecting on the basis that something will be "annoying" or will make their life a little harder. If you want a command unblocked, make a simple suggestion. You may very well be surprised.

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@Ashaz#24 you can’t say anything against admins without admins arguing back against it.

Of course. You can't criticize someone (respectfully or otherwise) without expecting a response. If an admin responds with valid arguments designed to counter your claims, that's perfectly fine and should not be considered oppression. If an admin just outright insults you, then report it to the EAO team or IA. Additionally, it's unfair to make generalizations about everyone with a staff rank - just as it's unfair to make generalizations about OPs.

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@Ashaz#24 There is no confirmed evidence this will help, however I personally believe this council could benefit OPs a lot in the future and help to sort problems out.

If you want to convince people that this is a good idea, there has to be some form of evidence.

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@Ashaz#24 Well, we do have Darth, who was voted in to represent the community, including OPs. However, Darth is an admin, so he sees things from an admin perspective. What if we had an OP perspective too? What if we had a group of OPs who could show what life is like, instead of seeing everything from an admin perspective? Wize intended for this group to work with the help of the ESL, and Darth apparently may be helping, should this group be made official.

Yes, I do have an admin perspective. But that doesn't somehow put me on a different plane of existence than the players of the server. If you want me to know something about your experience as an op, send me a message. That's part of my job.

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@Ashaz#24 There is also a chance the ESL will help us, should the vouches go through.

I'll help if the suggestion goes through and the community wants me to be involved in this. For now, I object to this suggestion.

I'd like to break this down piece-by-piece because this is just silly, and this is coming from someone who campaigns for operators' freedom and rights.

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Certain suggestions that benefit OPs aren't put through because admins don't like the idea of OPs having the power to do those things, as it can be 'annoying' but not harmful to the server.

False.

1. You're writing this as if admins are deliberately trying to restrict your power, which is not only false but extremely misleading.
2. The majority of suggestions that called for certain WorldEdit commands to be unblocked consisted mainly of vouches from both operators and administrators.

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Many OPs also face situations from admins, such as admins banning them and calling them things like 'cunt' in the ban messages.

There is no evidence in the punishment log of this occurring.

While I do not doubt that there might be some admins who are disrespectful towards operators, I think you're hyperbolizing situations like this.

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OPs don't report this as it can be tiring to file an IA report. It does feel like you need to write out 2 paragraphs per question and include multiple pieces of evidence.

Not really. You can file an IA report without using the template. All you need to do is explain what happened, include when it happened, include context, and include evidence (log files, screenshots, etc). In some cases, a single piece of evidence is definitely not enough to build a case against someone regardless of rank if that's what you're aiming at.

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There is no dedicated place for OPs, and that's what the council is for.

There doesn't need to be one. It would be redundant to implement something like this.

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A place where OPs can come and talk and feel safe and confident.

That's what the server is for. What makes operators feel otherwise?

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you can’t say anything against admins without admins arguing back against it.

You're presenting all admins like as if they're horrible oppressors who want to take away your freedoms and cannot take constructive criticism. This is very misleading.

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I’d also like to clarify that not all admins are bad.

In the statements that come before this, you were making generalizations of administrators by painting them all to look nothing but evil. This statement, from my point of view, is contradictory to those previous statements.

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Everything on here is seen from an admin perspective but almost never from an OPs side, unless it comes from me or Noah.

Would it be possible for the reason for this being the case is simply because people simply don't care about TF politics?

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Because of that, it causes issues as significant admins don't consider how things could affect OPs.

False.

The issues you have presented in this thread can be resolved in ways that do not require a government body to be established.

• You can easily ask someone from IA to help you file a report against an administrator.
• You can easily make suggestions to unblock certain features, provided you think the suggestion through enough and give a better solution to the problem the feature causes than just simply blocking it.
• If you want others to feel comfortable on the server, solve the problem at its root. Don't come up with a blanket solution that is overly complicated and may not even properly resolve the problem at all.

I absolutely agree that changes need to be made to give the operators more freedoms and a louder voice, but this is going overboard.

Object.

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@Ashaz#24 certain WE commands aren't allowed.

I thought every command was unblocked aside from those that needed to be

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@Ashaz#24 Certain suggestions that benefit OPs aren't put through because admins don't like the idea of OPs having the power to do those things, as it can be 'annoying' but not harmful to the server.

Examples?

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@Ashaz#24 Many OPs also face situations from admins, such as admins banning them and calling them things like 'cunt' in the ban messages. OPs don't report this as it can be tiring to file an IA report. It does feel like you need to write out 2 paragraphs per question and include multiple pieces of evidence.

IA can't handle every time someone uses the word 'cunt' in a ban message. It's not great but it really isn't the end of the world, just send it to the EAO or legit just say to the admin yourself 'bro cut it out"

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@Ashaz#24 'make a forum account!' will not change that,

Then, how do you propose OPs find this discord of yours?

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@Ashaz#24 You could say the server is there for that, but admins watch over it and you can’t say anything against admins without admins arguing back against it.

This is absolutely ridiculous. If you call me a shitty admin I'm going to defend myself. If you tell me I've done something wrong I'm going to defend myself. You're essentially proposing an area that OPs can use to begin brigades and witchhunts. If you have a problem with an admin, tell that admin, don't say stuff in private while not taking any actual action to resolve problems.

We aren't oppressors. If I said 'Ashaz you're a dickhead' you'd argue against that. We don't ban people with differing opinions. I don't understand where this 'admin bad oppress no opinion' mentality comes from.

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@Ashaz#24 Everything on here is seen from an admin perspective but almost never from an OPs side, unless it comes from me or Noah. Because of that, it causes issues as significant admins don't consider how things could affect OPs.

Or Zarcana, Courteously, Feueristic, Panther, Square, Wild, Wilee, Mibbzz, and more

Sounds neat, but your discord link is invalid, if you could fix that i would love to check it out

holy shit this has actually gotta be the dumbest thing ever. this is the equivalent of liberals in real life. my fucking god are you idiots. if you want something unblocked, why not actually just send me a dm. and stop being so vague "unblock worldedit", "use this flag to unblock stuff in libsdisguises". i have no idea what any of that means unless you actually are specific. you genuinely have got to be kidding me. no surprise this is from ashaz either. if you want stuff unblocked tell me specifically what is blocked and what CLEARLY the solution is (or if there is none yet, tell me to look into it). on god if i get a bunch of dms from a fucking op council im blocking all of you. for real this has genuinely got to be the dumbest thing. it's not 'annoying' that stuff is blocked. what's annoying is how you can't communicate one god damn clear thing to me and yet you form this, for what? being absent for voting is definitely an issue though and this forum is mostly just an admin staff room at this point. that definitely should be addressed, no doubt, but unless you can prove that an OP council being an official part of TF will help solve the lack of ops voting on the forums, then i object. i think that problem could be solved w/o an official OP council.

furthermore i as of now don't have access to any server files (this is a rule on the ownership policy and should be changed) and can't fix anything, and all of the suggestions are gone for what needed to be done. also, i am also the only active dev who is also extremely busy.

Object.

Neutral, may be subject to change with further discussion.

You want an OP's perspective? I'll give you an OP's perspective.

You'll see me almost never commenting on threads that involve higher hierarchies logistics. Be it admin quarrels, executive policy changes or what have you. Do I have opinions on them? Sure - but I don't actually care enough to voice it, and I doubt most of us even care enough to have an opinion. Do they bring changes to the table? Sure, but do they bring changes of substance that affects a normal player's experience on the server? I don't think that changing one line in the policy constitutes to all of your rights being lost nor does it mean the server will rapidly deteriorate to nothingness within 2 weeks, which is mainly the reason why I often don't care enough and neither does most of the OPs.

We all know that there's constantly tons of admins actively replying in the forums. Do you know why it isn't the case for OPs? Personally, usually because of two reasons:

1. The situation is silly and either that I don't have an opinion or I don't feel like giving one;
2. The concern is already voiced by other people in the same thread and therefore would be redundant to repeat a point.

The biggest gripe I have with this post is that you make it mutually exclusive that an admin can never have an OP's perspective. I simply cannot count how many times admins have voiced some concern that I had in mind or even made some concerns that would only matter to an OP that I didn't even think existed. Just because a person has a certain rank does not mean they cannot logically derive the effects of a certain change on any other specific ranks.

Points are criticized based on the validity of the points. If someone suggested a horrid irreversible change to the server that brings nothing positive, people will criticize it be the person making the point you or Darth, Luke, Panther, me or any other person really.

I am frustrated at this post not because I read things from an admin's perspective, I am frustrated because you are undermining the actual freedom and power we all have that we don't utilize. You made the "first thread" on this entire forums within 5 minutes of the new forums announcement. If that isn't a testament to say how easy it is for any player to voice their concerns, I don't know what is.

If you really wanted a controlled, open environment for discussion to take place in the balance of all parties with points simply criticized for what they are, I don't think you would need to make a separate Discord server for OPs and specifically OPs to join. What you are creating is not a good environment to cultivate good suggestions to better the future of TotalFreedom. To put nicely, it's a safespace - to put it blunt, it sounds nothing less of an echo chamber.

The concept and the intention of this OP Council thing is not bad. If we really could somehow encourage OPs to give more valid opinions (unique or not) that would be amazing to the server. Sadly, your execution is very much dangerous and your true intentions seems questionable.

I look forward to what you think.

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@Ashaz#73 But how would you advertise it?

How would you advertise the op council discord? So far you've been DM advertising on Discord & advertising on the server