@billy7oblos#11591

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not directly but normalizing homosexuality leads to pedophilia and others being normalized. (twitter made a rule allowing people to discuss it, it is clearly its being normalized)

So because Twitter permitted discussion about attraction towards minors with the provision that "they don't promote or glorify child sexual exploitation in any way" means that culturally Western society has drifted towards the aether and are on the same path as was Sodom and Gomorrah.

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true, i forgot to add that gays have many many more sexual partners than straight people on average

Are you implying that unwillingly spreading STDs is somehow amoral?

@Madea#11600 It's true. Gay men tend to be more promiscuous than straight men.

@billy7oblos#11615

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I dont know about you but if i thought something was morally wrong i would want it banned for sure

Legality is a whole other ballpark than morals and ethics. Cutting in line isn’t illegal, yet you wouldn’t call it just. My point being that I would contend that since 25% of America believes that homosexuality should be outright banned that an even bigger part of America (I believe the numbers are somewhere between 30-40% are either very- or somewhat against the idea of same-sex relations. Landing on the conclusion that, yes, the “majority of American society” has indeed accepted homosexuality, but to equivocate this into being the norm for the broad society is ludicrous.

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My point was not rebuked at all, you said " Cultural acceptance is key in preventing suicides for any marganlized or oppressed community. and i am saying that the cultural acceptance was way lower (and in still in some areas) and the suicide rate is less in those areas, indicating that there are less gay people in those areas. I probably would not be able to get accurate suicide rates from the past so scrap that. As for the modern day suicide rates, lets compare Saudi Arabia and Canada, one ultura conservative country vs a country well known for its acceptance and welcoming refugees (whooo canada!)”

I’m not sure you know what “rebuke” means. Instead of continually using the same point I wanted you to either further expand on said point or use another instead of acting like a record player. And yes, cultural acceptance is indeed key in preventing suicides for marginalized and/or oppressed communities. I will happily link to the plethora of research or scholars on the subject, but I doubt you’d take the time to read it.

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we can see from the first image that saudi arabia has one of the lowest lgbt acceptance (and decreasing), and from the second map we see that it also has some of the lowest suicide rates in the world

Again this is awfully misleading. LGB compromise 3.5% of the US populus (0.4 in addition being trans), and far less in sexually repressed countries like the KSA. There are a number of factors that could play into the lower suicide rates. E.g. most people in the KSA are extremely or moderately religious (predominantly Sunny Muslim), meaning that they view suicide as a sin. If you dearly believe that commiting suicide is equal to damaging God’s creation, then the suicide rate would naturally be lower. Canada is one of the least religious countries in the world, incl. Western and Northern Europe.
Another factor could be poor reporting. There’s also a broad trend of higher suicide rates in the majority of Western socities. To somehow contort this into being about whether or not we legalize gay marriage or accept the gayness is absurd.

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again these are countries with wayyy lower lgbt acceptance than the us and canada, so if they had the same amount of lgbt people as north america, the suicide rates would be higher for sure.

Citation needed.

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https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11501300/

Keep in mind that t his is a non-peer reviewed study. And the abstract quotes: "Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation."
You insinuated it showed that homosexuals are responsible for more childhood abuse than straights, which is misleading. The study examined how many homosexuals had experienced molestation, not whether or not they did it to others.

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https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/…factsheet.shtml

This is yet another quote from your citation:
"17-45% of lesbians report having been the victim of at least one act of physical violence.” [...] but “Violence appears to be about as common among lesbian couples as among heterosexual couples (1,5). In addition, the cycle of violence occurs in both types of relationships.”

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3462414/

I never claimed the opposite of what your study tells.

Could you kindly answer my question instead of obfuscating. Do you think unwillingly spreading STDs is amoral?

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https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/yet-anoth…0-years-shorter

And this is why the gay is bad.

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https://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/f…olestation.html

So your contention is that there is no difference in a man being exclusively attracted to male children vs. being attracted to other men?
“For the present discussion, the important point is that many child molesters cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.”

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to clarify, when i said lgbt are more likely to molest children, I was talking about crime statistics

If you're saying that being exclusively attracted to adolescent or younger males is equal to being exclusively attracted to other men, then perhaps you’re right, but not a single study you’ve showed says this is the case and all have made the distinction.

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your side tells people they were born different instead of providing them with the help they need, directly influencing the suicide rates in transgender people

No respected psychologist or psychiatrist will ever tell you that being gay is a mental illness. So why would you ever need to provide them with treatment. Same goes with transgenderism: the consensus is that transgenderism is – not – a disorder, but there may be some associated with the package.

@paiige1_#11618 There’s a reason why I support a Singlepayer-solution for the US compared to what they have currently. I think it’s the right thing to do when you prioritize help based on need. Which is why I find it odd that you say that I’m somehow for letting a non-critical person get treatment before another in a less fortunate situation. And no, I don’t support transitioning to be “quirky and trendy” and I know as a matter of fact that the vast, vast majority of gender transitions don’t occur as a result of this, and to insinuate that I belive this is a laughably bad strawman. I never claimed that being born the wrong gender doesn’t “fucking suck”. Gender dysphoria is a nuanced and complex issue that requires not just a lot of treatment, but also retrospection. You transition to another gender if it fits you better and increases your quality of life. There’s a reason why a whole field of psychology is studying this matter specifically. You might experience euphoria with another gender, whilst not being necessarily bothered in your daily life prior to transitioning. This is also not to speak of the plentiful of issues with identifying gender dysphoria. As I mentioned, this issue is much more complex than you make it out to be with your comments here.

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I don't even know why you're speaking on this matter. If I remember correctly, you're not even trans. […] when you haven't nearly died to your own hands because of dysphoria i don't think you have the right to speak on matters like this.

Me being non-binary or not has nothing to with this argument other being an out for you to personally attack me or dismiss my opinion, because I don’t have the “right to speak on matters like this. I don’t bring up my degree in this discussion because I don’t think it’s relevant to the argument. And I think it’s absurd to claim that “one statement from the APA doesn’t represent the psychological community when they’re the largest organization of professional psychologists. That’s the equal to saying that the reports from the IPCC’s doesn’t represent the scientific consensus on climate change. Of course there are nuances, but to claim that they don’t follow the consensus is absurd.

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if the "majority" of the psychiatric community agreed that you don't need dysphoria to be trans and transition it wouldn't be such a rigorous process to transition.

I will happily link you to the established research on the topic. Not every healthcare system is equal to yours (Assuming the US). Studies show that a single-payer system, or at least a public option, is superior to what the US has currently, yet the US still hasn’t enacted such a system. Bureaucracy and poltics all have a role in this as well.

@billy7oblos#11747

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I did not imply that its the norm, but its accepted by the majority of society in contrast to the KSA where the acceptance is way lower

You've insinuated multiple times that homosexuality and transgenderism is rampant in Western society and, in your own wording, will/has lead to normalization (or acceptance) of sexual deviance like pedophilia and zoophilia.

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This applies to LGBT rates too (if its considered a sin people will do it less). But its not far off to assume that LGBT is linked to suicide because members of LGBT tend to have a higher suicide rate.

Far fewer LGBTQ+ people are religious than straight people, so I don’t get why if it is considered a sin in religion that this would have any effect on the broader LGBTQ+ community’s suicide rate. Your last sentence paraphrased is literally this: “LGBTQ+ is linked to suicide because LGBTQ+ tend to have a higher suicide rate.” I have no idea what else you could mean besides that LGBTQ+ have a higher suicide rate because they commit suicide. Care to elaborate?

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in the end, just because western countries accept homosexuality (it is western countries see map) does not mean that "everyone has secretly been repressing homosexuality (4% of society ) for thousands of years

I don’t know which methodology or scale your link uses to determine if a country is accepting of LGBT. Naturally Western countries would be more accepting of LGBT since they’re the most liberal, and the laws in each of these countries reflect that. But I have to emphasize, again, that there is a clear distinction between something being legal and something being culturally accepted or normalized. As I mentioned earlier. 30-40% of Americans disapprove of homosexuality. That’s not very accepting, is it?
I also never gave that as justification for my argument. I have mentioned that there’s reason to believe that the degree of homosexuality (sexual attraction) in societies has been constant, but the fact that homosexuality has, for the most part of history, been widely regarded as a sinful/disgusting state of being – therefore one would naturally try to repress their sexuality to avoid persecution by your family, peers or government, and as I see it, you have yet to give ample reason for me to believe the opposite.

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I can point to some facts that imply that homosexuality does not exist in less sexualised countries, i only do this because i realize that if you you really think you were born the wrong gender, you will accept such a huge conspiracy theory.

What constitutes a “sexualized country”? And what is this conspiracy theory you speak of? I’m pretty certain that I know the consensus on relevant literature. Unless that’s what you claim is a huge conspiracy that sociologists and the like are in on?

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An example is if someone joins a cult and becomes convinced that there is an invisible jug on their head, you can tell them that it makes no sense, you can tell them that its scientifically impossible but you cant argue with "i feel the weight of the jug on my head

So are you saying I’m in a cult because I don’t subscribe to the same belief as you?

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what i am trying to say is that the burden of proof falls on the LGBT community to prove that there always was and is 4.5 percent of people who are gay. No matter how convincing it is to say "it makes sense" or "they weren't allowed to come out" its still on you to prove it, or else its nothing more than a conspiracy theory.

This is an unfalsifiable claim as there is no way to examine the sexuality of people in the past beyond written firsthand accounts. A perfect example of Russel’s Teapot. So in fact, the burden of proof lies upon you, as you’re the one making ther unfalsifiable claim. We could also go about this via the law of parsimony – the simplest explanation is that it has been constant with time.

I also think you should look up what a conspiracy theory is.

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The so called "gay gene" has been debunked there is no test that can accurately say if you are gay and there is nothing even suggesting that homosexuality is not influenced by society

I have never claimed that homosexuality is not to some extent influenced by society, however to say that the “gay gene” has been debunked is a falsehood, as no serious (social) scientist has claimed that a simply gene could describe your sexuality. This is a vast field in sociology and psychology still being studied, and I don’t think you, nor me, are going to be able to come to the final conclusion on this topic. Of course it is likely that to - some - extent homosexuality has increased due to societal factors, but there is no way to tell besides pondering.

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If we agree that homosexuality is unnatural than the argument shifts to the bad side affects of it.

I agree that your teeth are unnatural because you use tooth paste. I agree that your immune-system is unnatural because you’ve likely been vaccinated. And again, homosexuality is not inherently “unnatural”.

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no, i didn't say or imply that, STDs are a bad side affect though "And this is why the gay is bad.", no life expectancy is just another bad side affect.

And how does that bother you specifically if Mike wants to buttfuck Chad and he will, statistically, be more likely to receive an STD compared to Jessica and Tony? Do you want to mandate how people live their lives to such an extent that they can’t be with whomever they want?

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no, they are not exactly the same in practical terms. but they are both deviants

False. Homosexuality is not considered a deviant in social sciences, as sexual deviancy denotes unusual sexual activity.

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I think this is about opinion not studies, I consider them both deviants but a gay person would not want to be associated with them

Facts over feelings my dude.

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if you tell someone they were born the wrong gender, that is telling them they were born wrong, and that they will never be able to truly be the gender they want to be and never experience love in the same way. That is pretty fucked up even if you don't directly say "you are born mentally wrong"

Nobody tells transgender people they’re born the wrong gender. They determine that for themselves. Psychologists, Psychiatrists and other medical specialists help with the actual transition and in combatting the illnesses that might accompany a person who might be suffering from gender dysphoria (e.g. Depression).

@billy7oblos#11916 I don't get why you continue to repeat the falsehood that homosexuality and transgenderism is sexual deviancy. Moreover, my comment was in respone to you denying that you implied it was the norm, but now you say you think it's rampant?

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is this admitting that the existence of LGBTQ+ people is related to society? that is nice.

I don't have to "admit" anything. I never said that LGBTQ+-people were exclusively a product of genetics.

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Anyway suicide rates are another bad side affect of LGBT+ (that side affect does not exist in KSA is why i used it as an example)

I've told you why suicide is a bad indicator / measurement in regards to this conversation, yet you continue arguing the same point.

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this is the conspiracy theory part, you cant just say 'it was illegal and socially unacceptable therefore the numbers are constant with todays numbers' the same could be said about pedophiles. the "ample reason to believe otherwise" is wrong because just because you feel something does not mean its been there for thousands of years. There is no ample reason to believe that the number of gay people has been constant, and there is overwhelming amount of proof that it has not.

Yet you give me no reason as to why I can’t claim that because it was socially unacceptable at the time that people would then repress their own sexuality. I may have worded it wrong earlier, but I clearly said in my last comments that there is no certainty in whether or not the percentage of LGBTQ+ have deviated since then. Which is why I called you out on your falicious reasoning that I should somehow be able to disprove an unfalsifiable claim. Seems you skipped over that part?

And I still implore you to learn what a conspiracy theory actually is. A conspiracy theory =/= hypothesis/theory lol.

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Imagine if a pedophile claimed that half of society are secretly pedos, and that they just hide themselves because the subject is under taboo.

Except we can empirically assess this via anonymous questionaires or psychological assesments. You can’t do the same with a person from 1,000 years ago besides their own firsthand accounts.

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There is no ample reason to believe that the number of gay people has been constant, and there is overwhelming amount of proof that it has not.

Kindly do show said proof. You continue to say that there is a lot of proof, but so far you have only linked to religious bigotry, unrelated suicide rates, STD stats and cherry-picked/misinterpreted your own (non-peer-reviewed) studies. I implore you to give me this abundance of academic research that verifies your claim that the percentage of LGBTQ+ persons has increased from ancient times.

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Today we are more sexualized than ever, with pornogeraphy and sexual themes so pervasive that a show was recently banned for sexualizing children

And that show got cancelled due to outrage from the public. Wouldn’t that speak against your argument?

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rape and molestation (and with extension homosexaulity) are way more common than they used to be and fertility rates are falling hard. Why is this relevant to the topic? because molestation is linked to homosexuality. link link2

I have already told you why this is not true. Homosexuality is not linked to molestation, and your own studies doesn’t claim so. Your second (new) link literally says in the abstract: “The reader is urged to use considerable caution in making cause and effect inferences. “. Seems like you didn’t even get past the abstract. Kindly read what you cite before you put it out into the aether.

Yes. I agree that homosexuality is much more - visibile - today than before, but you have to assert why that is besides conjecture.

I don’t get why you mention fertility rates, which have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Do you think the gays are turning men infertile lol.

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no, i compared what you think to what someone in a cult could think. also when i say conspiracy theory i don't mean an actual conspiracy theory

Then why would you even use the wording “conspiracy theory” lmao.

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[…] hygiene is good. They all contribute to a longer life. Can you say the same about homosexuality?

I never claimed that homosexuality contributes to a longer life. Just as you can’t claim that being straight contributes to a longer life. And I don’t even get why this is relevant if something contributes to a longer life or not, when that has nothing to do with the ethical nature of homosexuality.

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I agree, you just asked for a source on an opinion i gave, due to the nature of homosexuality (being in peoples heads) i cant prove that a man molesting a boy is gay, and you cant prove it is gay. Its a matter of opinion and there are no "facts" in it

Sure. But I just want to let you know that the vast majority of relevant scientific fields disagree with you. Why shouldn’t I be the one calling you a conspiracy theorist (per your own logic) here?

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A display of this stupidity is when "trans women" (men) claim to have periods; its fucking retarded and you can see how much faith they have in the lie that they built for themselves.

Can you find mainstream examples of this? Not just some obscure retard, but a genuine interview with a sane person?

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when a huge part of society endorses the lie that you can be born in the wrong gender, it only damages "trans people" (people who are unfortunate enough to believe the lie that they were born the wrong gender)

A lie backed by nearly every psychologist, sociologist, psychiatrist and other relevant fields. See, that’s what a conspiracy is, so you do know what it is, you just don’t know you’re the one caught in them. Do you think climate change is a hoax too?